Placeholders are something I've seen people do in there projects while they develop. Whether it be maps or dialogue, is it really a good thing to do? Sure, someone can just make a map with the basic walking areas and what not, then leave it and go to another map. But what if they miss it or make so many placeholders that the project becomes overwhelming thus leading to it's doom?
Personally, I always spend a lot of time on a new map to really give it it's final feel. If I have to go out of my way to create an object specifically for that map, I would. It just leaves things out of the way instead of partially finishing it just to go back to it while you're finished half the game already. I think one would lose motivation to do much effort on the placeholder if that was the case.
Not sure about dialogue but again it's something that I believe has to be fully developed and looked at if needed.
So, what are your thoughts about placeholders?
Full Version: Placeholders
I accept them when used instead of battlers and/or characters, not for maps or dialogues. Dialogues must be refined and completed before releasing the demo. There's no point in setting "fake" dialogues or "approximate" maps.
I completely agree with you. Fortunately, battlers&characters are easy to replace - just replace a file - and you can do that even when your game is finished without modifying anything else.
Jens
I completely agree with you. Fortunately, battlers&characters are easy to replace - just replace a file - and you can do that even when your game is finished without modifying anything else.
Jens
I actually agree with Jens on this, I hate placeholder maps and dialogue, it makes no sense, but graphics, graphics can be replaced easily and even I use them when I have too. I actually hate even doing that much though, and it can cause my game to be delayed because I don't have the skill to make it myself or able to find someone who can.
I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to doing a story, and I have to make the scene as well as it can be and playtest it thoroughly before moving on. If I were to come back to it later, I'd probably forget what I was doing there.
Mapping is a bit different. Most of the time I map as I go along, but once in awhile I'm hit with a spark of creativity, and I'll make maps ahead of the game, but even those I take into careful consideration so I won't have to redo everything when the time comes.
As for placeholders, I never use them. I either make an effort to find what I need when I need it, or I put it completely off for the time being until I've had a chance to dig deeper. If I can't find what I need, I'll evaluate whether I really need the item, event, etc., and if so I'll look for a suitable substitute.
Mapping is a bit different. Most of the time I map as I go along, but once in awhile I'm hit with a spark of creativity, and I'll make maps ahead of the game, but even those I take into careful consideration so I won't have to redo everything when the time comes.
As for placeholders, I never use them. I either make an effort to find what I need when I need it, or I put it completely off for the time being until I've had a chance to dig deeper. If I can't find what I need, I'll evaluate whether I really need the item, event, etc., and if so I'll look for a suitable substitute.
I am kinda like Amerk I am very very fussy cause I hate Placeholders, but they are somewhat useful, especially when you have very unhelpful team members who take to damn long to give over their damn work they've promised!!
So after a while I ended up getting over the fact that I had to use Placeholders
So after a while I ended up getting over the fact that I had to use Placeholders
Well, working in a team could lead you to use many placeholders, since you are actually bound to what your teammates are doing. Jonnie is damn right about it, if you're waiting for a resource which never comes, well... you have no choice but to use some placeholders instead of them. This is for sure.
Jens
Jens
i am exactly like Amerk or Jonnie too... i can't stand placeholders.
i will work on something until it is done. : )
The only placeholders i use r for character art/ illustrations... i like having them be as recent/ "fresh" when the game is done i guess, lol.
i mean, if it takes me too long to finish a project, i will mostly end up redrawing everything if i do the art too early.
i will work on something until it is done. : )
The only placeholders i use r for character art/ illustrations... i like having them be as recent/ "fresh" when the game is done i guess, lol.
i mean, if it takes me too long to finish a project, i will mostly end up redrawing everything if i do the art too early.
I was actually reading an article yesterday about coding tricks for game developers, which touched on this subject ever so slightly. It's also something I've done in many, if not all, of my projects..
can be found here.
It allows for sections to be completed faster than they would by not doing this method. When I code cosmetic systems I use "programmer graphics" this is simple boxes with text in them. Just so I can get the layout done, whilst my artist is drawing up the real deal. By the end of it, we have the final piece, that only needs the art changed to make it complete.
I'm not waiting for art whilst I'm coding, so I can just carry on until the system is complete.
I was actually reading an article yesterday that coding tricks for game developers which mentioned this in the article. It's also something I've done in many, if not all, of my projects.
can be found here.
It allows for sections to be completed faster than they would by not doing this method. When I code cosmetic systems I use "programmer graphics" this is simple boxes with text in them. Just so I can get the layout done, whilst my artist is drawing up the real deal. By the end of it, we have the final piece, that only needs the art changed to make it complete.
I'm not waiting for art whilst I'm coding, so I can just carry on until the system is complete.
QUOTE
12. I'm a programmer, not an artist - Damian Connolly
For indie / solo developers who are working on an iPhone or Android game on their own, while you're looking for an artist etc, you should be developing your game at the same time. Use programmer art, stand-ins, free sprites anything. Most of the time, before even thinking about final assets, I just want something up and running quickly to see if it's fun. Prototype the crap out of it and find the game. Then, when the gameplay's locked down, you can start putting in the proper art. Doing it the other way around leads to lost money, and work that needs to be redone multiple times, which aside from harming your project, sucks your motivation to finish it (and if you're making a game to get a job, showing that you can finish a project is a good thing). Another tip if you're lacking upfront finance is to find a freelance game artist who will accept a revenue sharing deal, e.g. typically something like 30% of game revenue, payable once it gets published to the AppStore.
For indie / solo developers who are working on an iPhone or Android game on their own, while you're looking for an artist etc, you should be developing your game at the same time. Use programmer art, stand-ins, free sprites anything. Most of the time, before even thinking about final assets, I just want something up and running quickly to see if it's fun. Prototype the crap out of it and find the game. Then, when the gameplay's locked down, you can start putting in the proper art. Doing it the other way around leads to lost money, and work that needs to be redone multiple times, which aside from harming your project, sucks your motivation to finish it (and if you're making a game to get a job, showing that you can finish a project is a good thing). Another tip if you're lacking upfront finance is to find a freelance game artist who will accept a revenue sharing deal, e.g. typically something like 30% of game revenue, payable once it gets published to the AppStore.
can be found here.
It allows for sections to be completed faster than they would by not doing this method. When I code cosmetic systems I use "programmer graphics" this is simple boxes with text in them. Just so I can get the layout done, whilst my artist is drawing up the real deal. By the end of it, we have the final piece, that only needs the art changed to make it complete.
I'm not waiting for art whilst I'm coding, so I can just carry on until the system is complete.
I was actually reading an article yesterday that coding tricks for game developers which mentioned this in the article. It's also something I've done in many, if not all, of my projects.
QUOTE
12. I'm a programmer, not an artist - Damian Connolly
For indie / solo developers who are working on an iPhone or Android game on their own, while you're looking for an artist etc, you should be developing your game at the same time. Use programmer art, stand-ins, free sprites anything. Most of the time, before even thinking about final assets, I just want something up and running quickly to see if it's fun. Prototype the crap out of it and find the game. Then, when the gameplay's locked down, you can start putting in the proper art. Doing it the other way around leads to lost money, and work that needs to be redone multiple times, which aside from harming your project, sucks your motivation to finish it (and if you're making a game to get a job, showing that you can finish a project is a good thing). Another tip if you're lacking upfront finance is to find a freelance game artist who will accept a revenue sharing deal, e.g. typically something like 30% of game revenue, payable once it gets published to the AppStore.
For indie / solo developers who are working on an iPhone or Android game on their own, while you're looking for an artist etc, you should be developing your game at the same time. Use programmer art, stand-ins, free sprites anything. Most of the time, before even thinking about final assets, I just want something up and running quickly to see if it's fun. Prototype the crap out of it and find the game. Then, when the gameplay's locked down, you can start putting in the proper art. Doing it the other way around leads to lost money, and work that needs to be redone multiple times, which aside from harming your project, sucks your motivation to finish it (and if you're making a game to get a job, showing that you can finish a project is a good thing). Another tip if you're lacking upfront finance is to find a freelance game artist who will accept a revenue sharing deal, e.g. typically something like 30% of game revenue, payable once it gets published to the AppStore.
can be found here.
It allows for sections to be completed faster than they would by not doing this method. When I code cosmetic systems I use "programmer graphics" this is simple boxes with text in them. Just so I can get the layout done, whilst my artist is drawing up the real deal. By the end of it, we have the final piece, that only needs the art changed to make it complete.
I'm not waiting for art whilst I'm coding, so I can just carry on until the system is complete.
He does not consider itself as "artist" even though making games is own form of art too? Granted, not everyone agree with this sentiment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_games_as_art
I prefer not to use placeholders unless I need to. I'm pretty sure that one who is good at spriting etc can figure out how to make maps look cooler after I have laid out the groundwork and it is time to focus to adding finishing touches to maps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_games_as_art
I prefer not to use placeholders unless I need to. I'm pretty sure that one who is good at spriting etc can figure out how to make maps look cooler after I have laid out the groundwork and it is time to focus to adding finishing touches to maps.
As with others, I use placeholders if the only reason I need something there is so that I can verify that something works.
For example, is I am testing the passability of my tiles, I don't need to have a beautiful scene that I put 126 hours into; it is sufficient to just have a simple path with a couple trees here and there and a random wall blocking the way.
Of course, if there was a tool that allowed you to track placeholders and what they are for whenever you insert one, you would not have much of a problem then.
For example, is I am testing the passability of my tiles, I don't need to have a beautiful scene that I put 126 hours into; it is sufficient to just have a simple path with a couple trees here and there and a random wall blocking the way.
Of course, if there was a tool that allowed you to track placeholders and what they are for whenever you insert one, you would not have much of a problem then.
The things that are truly important in my opinion are the gameplay and the eventing(or fleshing out of the storyline). I create a map with a road for the npcs & characters involved in a scene, and I flesh out the scene...I don't worry about the trees, rocks, etc I just place the events and do the scene. I at least have an idea of what the map will look like, maybe I'll have a path mapped out too but I think of the trees and other atmosphere as "the cherry on top". I've noticed that everything in a game takes FOREVER to do, particularly when you are a one man army, and fleshing out the story and doing scenes(including animations and what not) feels like you are really getting stuff done. It's all about staying motivated.
This may be true, but you should have an idea of what will be in front of the characters at the time of the scene. You wouldn't want to avoid adding details, create a really nice looking customized route for your character, then go back and add trees only to realize the character's route gets blocked and the scene messes up.
For me, it's a matter of doing it "somewhat" right the first time. Having to redo everything later takes a lot of work. Now when I say "somewhat" right, I don't mean it has to be perfect. If you spent your time trying to make everything perfect, you'd be at it forever. Make it doable, test it out, move on.
Once everything is in place and you're finished, that's when you should replay from start to finish (and get some other testers as well). You may find that some scenes worked fairly well, while others didn't come out quite as expected and may need to be revised. But at least the game is finished, and revising a scene after the fact may be prove to be far less time consuming.
For me, it's a matter of doing it "somewhat" right the first time. Having to redo everything later takes a lot of work. Now when I say "somewhat" right, I don't mean it has to be perfect. If you spent your time trying to make everything perfect, you'd be at it forever. Make it doable, test it out, move on.
Once everything is in place and you're finished, that's when you should replay from start to finish (and get some other testers as well). You may find that some scenes worked fairly well, while others didn't come out quite as expected and may need to be revised. But at least the game is finished, and revising a scene after the fact may be prove to be far less time consuming.
Never using placeholders forces you to make everything in exactly the same order it appears in the game, which is crazy. I seriously cannot fathom any downside to them. OP is sort of crazy. You need to be able to test stuff as soon as you make it. Waiting until everything is done to test anything is nuts. You should test the map's passabilities as soon as you've done them; you shouldn't wait until all the events, battles, music, graphics and cut scenes for the map are done too. You'll have ten times as many bugs and it'll be a pain in the ass to figure out what's causing the problem, and you'll have to redo other things you thought you'd finished just to narrow down what's causing the bugs.
This is one of the most basic things you can learn about creating... well, anything. It's not up for debate; it's just a fact. You'll learn the same thing in programming, carpentry, cooking, chemical engineering, writing, music composition, motorcycle building, and game design: make sure the pieces work before you assemble them, not after.
This is one of the most basic things you can learn about creating... well, anything. It's not up for debate; it's just a fact. You'll learn the same thing in programming, carpentry, cooking, chemical engineering, writing, music composition, motorcycle building, and game design: make sure the pieces work before you assemble them, not after.
Recently, I've been having a big case of this. Since I'm making a Nintendo CRossover game to resemble the style of the MArio and Luigi games in the visual aspect,,I have to make a lot of custom sprites for the characters that dont have a sprite in thos games/in that style rather than just taking a sheet and pasting the frame son a template..
Character sprites can use placeholders, but TIlesets (with the exception of Autotiles) cannot without having to redo a map all over again from scratch
Not to mention THre'es also the scripting, dialogue , eventing and gameplay mechanics to do as well., and with alll these tthings to do in order to achive what I'm aiming for, I feel like I'm not getting anything done. My question here is: ¿How far is it ok to use ripped and the RTP tilesets without looking too out of place in the game? Is it ok to ask for collaboration for the areas im not experienced in such as scripting? (I've always been very shy about asking for help in a project, ive had some bad experienecvs before wheneve i asked.)
Character sprites can use placeholders, but TIlesets (with the exception of Autotiles) cannot without having to redo a map all over again from scratch
Not to mention THre'es also the scripting, dialogue , eventing and gameplay mechanics to do as well., and with alll these tthings to do in order to achive what I'm aiming for, I feel like I'm not getting anything done. My question here is: ¿How far is it ok to use ripped and the RTP tilesets without looking too out of place in the game? Is it ok to ask for collaboration for the areas im not experienced in such as scripting? (I've always been very shy about asking for help in a project, ive had some bad experienecvs before wheneve i asked.)
QUOTE (heartlessmushroom @ Dec 18 2012, 10:40 AM) 
My question here is: ¿How far is it ok to use ripped and the RTP tilesets without looking too out of place in the game? Is it ok to ask for collaboration for the areas im not experienced in such as scripting? (I've always been very shy about asking for help in a project, ive had some bad experienecvs before wheneve i asked.)
Well, when it comes to combining two different tilesets, they do tend to clash in styles. If that isn't a problem for you, then I would say just minor stuff like RTP house with ripped items on a table. But truthfully, two tilesets do tend to make the game unprofessional... But hey some people don’t mind as long as is gets its point across.
As for scripts, I'm pretty sure someone will be happy to help if you ask them. I mean, several peoplei asked agreed when I asked if they could make a script for me when I needed one. Sadly I haven't really asked for any script... But they're there to help if so.
It's somewhat baffling to read posts with "I can't stand placeholders". Guys, there aren't here to look cool or pretty, they exist to make your life simpler so you can test pieces individually. Placeholders can (and should) be used for about everything.
LockeZ post -> /thread
LockeZ post -> /thread
I am personally fine with placeholders as long as they are used in the development process of your game. For example: battlers. When if you haven't made the graphic of the monster you want but you still want to test it to see if the enemy is balanced stat-wise? A placeholder is fine.
One thing I am against, however, is putting placeholders in public demos or any public releases. It just makes your game look unpolished and unprofessional.
One thing I am against, however, is putting placeholders in public demos or any public releases. It just makes your game look unpolished and unprofessional.
It is possible to get blocked around a particular scene or map, and having to finish it can take you months which would be better served finishing alot of smaller projects.
On the other hand, placeholders have a tendency of becoming potholes you have to fill in or they become bugs later.
On the other hand, placeholders have a tendency of becoming potholes you have to fill in or they become bugs later.
Placeholders work well in terms of testing the game, but as soon as you make a public release with placeholders still intact, you forfeit all rights to be taken seriously.
I agree with Zarro-Tsu you really should not use Placeholders in a demo release, It makes people believe you are unprepared and lazy. Especially judging by the responses on this thread 
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