So someone said we should make a character design section but for the heroes. Same rules, submit drawings, elaborate on personalities and other stuff.

We should still keep the Layer 1 thing open though, until all effects are resolved.

Right now we need:

Hero (either a fighter or a defender)

Character2 (probably a priest type)

Character3 (I was saying ice/lit wizard type, simply because we don't want duplicate elements below)

Character4 (probably either another fighter/tank type, or a specialty class)

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Outside Character 1 (fire mage/pyro)

Outside Character 2 (probably a monk)

Hero (either a fighter or a defender)
Real name: Johnny
Username: Ragna
Class: Warrior
Details: A well balanced character build. He takes the game very seriously and has made sure his attack, defence, and speed are all very high. Because of this he is able to do quests without the assitance of others (perhaps we could include a room where only Johnny is present?)

Character2 (probably a priest type)
Real name: Rosetta [Placeholder, I don't like this name]
Username: Melon [I kinda like this username but it makes no sense lol, placeholder]
Class: Cleric/Priest
Details: Very low defense but has high speed, accuracy, and magic. This class relies on the other classes to protect her. (We should make skills that can take damage for other players). The class also has various status effect moves that can drain enemy health or slow them down.

Character3 (I was saying ice/lit wizard type, simply because we don't want duplicate elements below)
Real name: Maya [Placeholder]
Username: Glade [meh]
Class: Wizard/Mage
Details: This class relies on magic power to deal damage. Their physical strength is second lowest in the game [unless they take the battle mage subclass]. This class of mage has taken the ice skill path in order to unlock some extremely deadly ice moves.


Character4 (probably either another fighter/tank type, or a specialty class)
Real name: Kevin [Is this name too generic?]
Username: Trick
Class: Thief
Details: Thieves have a very high speed and a moderate attack. They are not known for their defence but this does not mean it's terrible. Thieves are one of the most popular classes because of their abilities that affect the game outside of battle. They can use the sneak ability to not be chased by enemies and can also pick locks, which is crucial for certain quests.

-----

I don't really have much for the other 2 characters. If we have the character be another mage perhaps we should let the player decide what element they want to be since these two are just starting the game.
Also, what does a monk do?

Every username is five characters long. I don't know if this is intentional, but I like it as a motif.

I'm gonna spitball now, everyone tell me what you like and what you don't.
Johnny/Ragna was the first to get the game, and quested alone for a while, which is why he picked the most balanced and independent class. This class is slow burning, but all consuming. A level 60 standard warrior is like a level 45 party all in one. So the Warrior is a slow class, but all purpose (depending on what they put their skills into) Ragna was a little weak on white magic, so he began recruiting others into his party for certain quests, eventually he encountered melon (I agree this should be changed) and he stuck with her because it just so happened they lived very near to each other (Melon can own the beach house just outside of town). When Johnny started hanging out with Rosetta more, his other friends felt a sting of jealousy and decided to try out the game. Maya exploited Johnny's lack of magic and made a mage class, while Kevin made a thief class because he liked it (we can play him off as an envious character later) .
Eventually all four of them began playing the game together and Maya (who is a possible love interest for Johnny, depending on how we play this) decided the whole group should invite Rosetta to hang out in the city with them (So Johnny and Rosetta weren't alone).
This is the story of how the group was formed from Rosetta/the game's point of view.
As for how everyone else knows each other, I'll leave that to you guys.

So:
Johnny: Fairly independent and likes to accomplish things on his own. He's not afraid to ask for help, but likes to be the main 'power' in a group. He doesn't show his ego, but he thinks rather highly of his responsibility to others. He feels like he should be an example for his friends and so refrains from anything that might cause arguments. This reflects his role as the comatose son (if it is him) as he is the blueprint of the world and hence the thing that holds it all together. He's open minded and likes to try new things (how he found the game) but too passive to persuade his friends (why he played alone).

Rosetta: Very introverted and innocent. She likes to help others because she is a little hapless herself. Her parents have accumulated a vast amount of money (hence the beach house) but in doing so neglected her during her childhood. She is somewhat awkward around others. She is not shy, simply aware that she isn't very good at being social. If she knows what she is doing, however, she will take reigns of the situation because she has a desire to help others (she is her own and others mother figure.) She read online that the game had a lack of healing players and, being a general fan of games, decided to help change the balance of the game. She doesn't like being a healer, but certainly likes helping others and feeling wanted/needed.

Maya: Maya had known Johnny since (someone else write this) and has always admired him in her own way. This isn't' necessarily a romantic admiration, but one of necessity. Maya and Johnny are friends, but Maya is irked by how invulnerable Johnny is. She wants to know the 'real' Johnny, but to know that she has to know his weaknesses, so she wants to be a necessary part of his life, and is spiteful of those who might take her role as the nurturing friend.

Kevin: I think I'm all out of 'spur of the moment' character stuff. I'd like Johnny to be an intelligent and generally well liked person, but never really satisfied, but that's about it I'll come back to this later I guess.

I have focused on Johnny too much, and I don't want to do this. It might be worth making supplementary characters, or even additional characters within the game, with which to make more ties between and experiences we can explore. So we need more ties I guess.

(I know how to make a fairly good steal skill, that can drop random common items. Rare items are a special drop, mainly from bosses)

Outside Character 1 (fire mage/pyro)
Real name: Jessica
Username: Edwin (Yea, she plays a male character)
Class: Fire Mage
Details: This class uses magic power to deal damage. Unlike the other mage, this one emphasizes physical power at the expense of magic strength (Jessica has done a number of very strange class building moves so now her physical damage is nearly as strong as her magical, except on fire weak enemies).

Outside Character 2 (probably a monk)
Real name: Eddy (if you'll notice, Jessica named herself after him as a username. She's a tomboy but obviously into him)
Username: Kaiju (joke name, as a monk I decided it should sound Eastern, and this word refers to monsters like Godzilla)
Class: Monk
Details: Monks basically use unarmed attacks (lock weapon as Unarmed, two handed). As they gain levels, their unarmed damage increases the number of attacks they can deal (swap weapons by event, giving them gradually ones with more attacks). They can double as healers, but unlike the priest, most of their healing effects are self-only. They also have a Ki Attack which deals holy damage to one enemy. It's basically a DPS class, not doing a great amount of damage but with multiple hits there is less miss chance, and criticals are devastating.

--------------

Let's say if Johnny is in a coma, Kevin is a younger sibling playing the game to try to make him remember and wake up. Sorta like Shugo in Hack://Dusk. [Placeholder]

Jessica offline is originally from the slums, and has spent a great deal of effort trying to work herself out of it. She finally succeeded, and got a home of her own, with a bit of help from Eddy. She has a great deal of admiration for him, even though she puts on a tough front. She fights in a great deal of brawls offline either with her bare hands and feet, or using a torch. Jessica is more the leader in any decision made between the two, while Eddy is mostly along for the ride.

Eddy is actually fairly rich. While Jessica couldn't afford the game, Eddy missed it because he didn't hear about it until it was sold out. Eddy is a direct friend of Johnny's but hasn't seen him for awhile (tie-in with that coma idea), while he knows the others mainly from an online connection with Johnny. Eddy met Jessica, even though they are from totally different social classes because he was a wannabe martial artist (too many Bruce Lee movies), and happened to see her brawling one day.

Maintaining the five-letter name limit for game characters.

Good so far? We need pictures of the characters so as to design sprites.

I'll be honest and say I'm not really a fan of Johnny being in a coma. Are you referring to the character in layer 3?

So I'm going to address the issue of romance in the game. I think it would be cool if we did it the way Tales of Symphonia did it. Through a series of responses, the player can decide which girl to show favor to. I'll show how this will play out:
Johnny isn't exactly oblivious to the fact that Maya has feelings for him, but he doesn't feel the need to get tangled up in that stuff so soon. Rossetta also has feelings for Johnny, but she assumes she'll be overshadowed by Maya. Rossetta keeps this to herself, and it can really only be noticed if the player decides to favor her.
On the other hand, favoring Maya is kinda the implied pairing of the game. They've known eachother since childhood. Of course, they never really became "friends" until they were about 16, before then they just knew eachother as "mom's friend's kid".
The player also has the choice of favoring Kevin. This will remove all of the romantic scenes that are presented in the game, but will shed more light on Kevin's past. This will also open up a new sidequest.

I'll write out Kevin's bio:
"Hey I'm Kevin, not really sure what else to really say here." Kevin is the "cool" friend. Not the steriotypical jock, but like, he's the friend that always has the right thing to say and always seems to get his way in situations. He chose thief because that class gives him the most freedom in the game. He can go places others can't and can get stuff for free by using the steal ability. He shys away from any sort of talk regarding his dark past. This can only be revealed by favoring him over the others.


Here's another idea. What if Rossetta and Eddy were siblings. They live in a large mansion and Jessica has been renting a room in it. Eddy has begun to have feelings for Jessica.

I'm not sure if I really like Jessica's backstory. I'm not really a fan of people who are prone to get into fights, but that might just be me. If everyone else likes it we can keep it.

I think I'm gonna start on some character art to see what I can do.

EDIT: Okay, I messed around with a face generator for a while. I was able to make something that kinda looked like the Rossetta in my head. [We really need to change the name, it doesn't fit that well]
Click to view attachment
I did various faces. Rossetta's character is very introverted, and so her facial expressions are very moderate. Do you think she should have glasses or not? How about the hair bands?

I guess I was going for the "fiery temper" personality for Jessica. The only thing I could think of offhand was that she was born into a pretty crummy world (either really poor or an abusive family, which I decided was a heck of a lot harder to swallow), and maybe she isn't actually all that tough, but she at least acts tough. She's likely to be a tsundere type.

Introverted usually works with glasses. I'll work some on the spriting later, right now it's kinda 2am.

For Kevin to know about "the child", He'd have to either be from layer 3 (daisy-chaining avatars to play in layer 1 or something like that), or be told/programmed the information from a layer 3 person. Either way could work, since it would be nice to have a link of some sort to layer 3 (besides the main character or the main antagonist) to help tie the plot together a little bit as the secrets slowly get revealed.

Also, by "using a torch" with Jessica's fighting style in layer 2, did you mean with an old fashioned torch, a lighter, or a flashlight? That point was a little confusing.

In the Plot thread, we talked a little bit about her and Eddy:
http://www.rpgrevolution.com/forums/index....st&p=557951
some points might be worth taking a look at.

For "Rosetta's" face, I actually prefer the one without glasses (and that purple scarf looks quite nice too). Not all introverts/supporting females have glasses, you know.

The purple scarf was my favorite, but it kinda makes her look like a child.

Ooh! I love the idea of Kevin being the avatar of a person in layer 3. But let's not made it depressing where Kevin is just a placeholder, let's let layer 2 Kevin be the avatar for layer 3 Kevin. He's the same person, just the layer 3 Kevin is a little more sophisticated.

And do you think we could make a tsundre personality without the tsundre? Like make the transition noticable, but don't make her suddenly become really nice and cute. yknow?

You've seen those movies where ppl have brawl and stuff, and someone has like a chain, or a knife, or something. Then someone gets like an oily rag on a metal pipe, or a stick, or something like that? That kinda torch (although, a welding torch might also work). It's sorta a tie-in for the fact that she's a fire-user online. (I reread the post link, I think my memories have garbled a bit. Now the monk is the guy and the fire-mage is a tough girl. Still sorta works though, you just switch the dynamics around a bit. Make him want to protect her, but she's tougher in most cases. This is part of why his online persona is a monk.)



I'm also toying with the idea of having her be a red-head (I didn't draw this).

MEAnds, this. Only for fire (Tsundere). Physically since she's done alot of brawling, she's pretty tough. Emotionally, well Tsundere is largely a tough act anyway, and possibly at some point she falls apart and starts crying, and although the monk isn't as strong physically (offline anyway), he manages to comfort her at a key time or something.

Layer 3 Johnny being in a coma was tossed about in the plot threads. It's basically an explanation for layer 2 existing. Programming team finds a way to integrate thoughts into a virtual reality, programmer's son falls into coma, programmers attempt to prevent brain death by wiring son up to virtual reality. At first they don't think it's working, but eventually there start being subtle changes in the code. Glitches resolve themselves, and the characters seem more immersive. However, a virtual reality with potentially thousands of NPCs made finding Johnny very difficult, in fact it seemed like he might not exist. And then one day, they found a group of friends much more alive than the other AIs, and interacting with one of them in particular reminded the lead programmer of his son. Johnny layer 2 isn't johnny layer 3, but he's a kind of residual image. He doesn't have Johnny's memories, but he has some of his mannerisms and opinions. Basically every 'living' being in layer 2 is constructed from Johnny 3's psyche, while Johnny 2 is just the closest in personality form (they might not even share a name, and they probably don't look too similar).

As with all, this isn't certain and can be changed.


I like this, and I also like the idea that one of the layer 2 characters is actually a layer 3 avatar, but I don't think they should both be Kevin.
What if Eddy was the layer 3 avatar? Or another character?
If Eddy, then he is one of the people on the programming team, a tester of sorts. The Jessica arc (him helping her get out of the slums) is basically Eddy realising that they've made a virtual world and included suffering. He takes it into his own hands to try and ease the suffering that he feels guilty for. To guilt trip the lead programmers, he introduces Jessica and himself to Johnny and his friends. Once the programmers see Johnny's reaction to her upbringing, they agree with Eddy and, in an effort to alleviate the suffering of the virtual world, have a very rich family enter town, creating jobs, and generally raising everyone's standard of living. This family is retroactively made into Eddy's 'family' though he actually just unplugs himself from layer 2 whenever he goes home.

This also explains why Eddy didn't have the game, but doesn't explain why he would go to great lengths to obtain it even though the update is happening...
Oh good, we've reached the stage where our plot is complex enough that we have to worry about plot holes and continuity errors...


Purple scarf Rosetta is also my favorite, though I think (if possible) we should go for custom art. That is a nice template though.

Johnny and his layer 3 form sounds like the plot of Kingdom Hearts 2.
I'll be honest and say I'm not a huge fan of random super technological advancements, but it works with this plot.


I'm just thinking that whoever is playing as Kevin or Eddy or whoever is the layer 3 person should be the same age as their counterpart, so they're not exactly playing a role, they've just entered a new environment. I feel like it might be a dissapointment to find out that one of the main characters was in disguise the whole time.


He goes through all the trouble to get the game because he has finally figured out who Johnny is. He needs to communicate with him.



Yeah, I just got kinda excited about the anime creator, I was just kinda thinking of what we should make her look like. I'm definitely against using a generator for a game like this.

But really, doesn't purple scarf Rosetta look a lot more like a child?

We could... do something like this..? :


I think the scarf has a nice feminine feeling to it. Maybe.. make it indigo, though.
And maybe also make her skin tan to make it a little fresh? And maybe short hair? I kept a dotted line of her old hairstyle in case you wanted to see how the pigtails would look.

The name "Carmen" could be an option, by the way. ' o ' Or "Jen".

(Wow, I submitted this fast.")

Before we get a headache of some sort on this, many of these layer 2 characters may be programmed by specific layer 3 people, without them knowing. The ones that are avatars are actually conscious of it, like Johnny (would be, if not for his incident). Some of the others are like NPCs even if they think they are heroes of their own tale.

If this doesn't make any sense, watch this (also, because it's a cool show).

Maple: New Leaf Saga

I don't like the idea of Eddy being part of it. Him having too much knowledge of the world kinda strains credibility of his whole romantic subplot. Probably another of the main party. Since Kevin isn't fully built besides a cool friend, this could work for him, but it might work better if one of the two girls "offline" thinks she has a chance with Johnny, but actually the other is his Layer 3 gf.

For the sake of consistency, we'll keep her name Rosette/Rossete. But I'm using the scarf/skirt/heels combo. Working on spriting now...



Jessica (online as male persona fire mage, and offline as herself)



Rosette (looking at her now, glasses might actually be a nice touch. Tried to go with a white theme, since she's a priest)



And Maya... Honestly, I think the offline picture could be swapped with Rosette's and give Rosette glasses and longer hair. Otherwise, I don't have a clue for offline.

I don't think Jessica should have red eyes, even though layer 2 is a game it still has to be somewhat realistic. I also feel like the hair is really bright, but that might just be me being picky. I always thought of Jessica having black hair or dark brown.
I really like the fire mage though.

I like the design for Rosetta, I think her bottom sprites might need something though, it's kinda empty and there's not really anything to make her look femenine from the back.
The red hair kinda clashes with Rosetta's outfit. I think with her personality and class, she should have less large of hair and maybe a less standing out color, like a calm blue or maybe just white?

It all depends on how we play it. He's not acting, he could genuinely find these people to be entertaining, fascinating. Maybe he even is attracted to some of them. Mostly, he just wants to make sure they're okay.
So the reveal would be done, of course, by him sacrificing himself to make sure they get away from something. It's okay for him to sacrifice himself, because he's just plugged into the game.
It still does him some damage, but he doesn't permanently die, and we see him again in layer 3.

I guess I'd compare it to auron in Final Fantasy X. (spoilers) In one of the near end scenes it's revealed that Auron is an unsent.
It doesn't make his character a lie, it actually makes his actions that much more compelling.

As I said, it all depends on how we handle it.



I like this very much. I wasn't a fan of the pigtails.
I actually prefer Carmen to Rosetta, but to avoid confusion we should probably stick with one for now.
Unless her name uses both? Rosetta could be a surname, or Carmen could be a middle name?


The sprites are also all looking very fitting (though I may agree with the red eyes thing).

They're supposed to be brown eyes.

Ummm, I'm not sure at all for Rosetta's layer 1. I just threw something together and made it sorta cute. I'm gonna try another model for layer 1. Is everything okay with the layer 2 for Rosette? And what should we have for layer 2 maya?

Or Carmen could be a last name; Rosetta Carmen is a sorta catchy name.

Oh okay, my bad, I thought I saw red on the eyes.

Maybe if we switched Maya and Rosetta's layer 1 sprites it would work better. Maybe a recolor too.

Carmen sounds like a good name. Rosetta Carmen works too. Also, if we think Rosetta is too long we could shorten it to Rose.

Hmm, what kind of person is Maya? ' o ' I think we're having trouble because we haven't decided what we want to portray in her yet?
I tried doing two versions of her, although I'm not sure it fits what you guys would like for her. :

She has a tiger-patterned belt on by the way, hahaha. But it's fine if it's just yellow or purple or something.

I'm rooting for the brown hair as a safe option, although I think the blonde one would be interesting.


Tell me what you think. And I'm very glad you liked Rosetta's concept. X2

Nothing doing there. I like her layer 1. I think I'll try retry the hair and such from scratch on Rosetta.

Then I'll try Maya for layer 2.




(Rosette online, since the red was too over the top, I tried to downplay her looks)

...Wow, I ended up with totally different hair for Maya. I figured sorta Johnny has two women who are after him, one's sorta shy, one's outgoing. At least, that's how it seems online. The awkward, clutzy one as described was Rose online. But that doesn't match her offline appearance (the bright red heels and short skirt for instance, says that much). Online, Maya has the much shorter skirt and less reserved look, but offline her outfit is more conservative. After trying blond (too much alike), and brown (it sorta clashed with the dark brown blouse/sweater), and just settled on a mild grey/black.



Of course, we could swap the layer 2 chars, but then it would be too predictable. Online characters not being who they seem is a staple of online experience.

Yeah, but at the same time it still reflects them to an extent. Not completely different but it shows who they want to be.

I get sort of critical when it comes to character design, these are just suggestions so don't take it personally,


Also, I was against it a first, but after thinking about it I do like the idea of them being the opposite of what they say they are.

You make those suggestions so gently there's no real way to get offended. How about, as the name implies, Rose has rose-colored hair?

I'm gonna try another shirt color. I'll just edit here.



Maya? I've seen some actual girls wearing this style (usually for a hike or something), so it should work a little better.

For Rosette... Having her hair entirely pink was a bit extreme, as it turned out. Having pink highlights at the edge was just different enough that it worked. I tried her without glasses and it didn't really work. But I'll show you.



(with)



(without)

The second one doesn't really depict "clumsy and shy" as well.

I was toying with the idea of having Maya be blind (when I was editing the eyes they had a blank white one), and her character's appearance based on her description. In order to avoid plotholes, it would have to be from a recent accident, so she remembers how she looks, in comparison to how she wanted to look. Maybe the game has voice-assisted version, so she can hear and dictate commands, even though she can't quite see. She chose wizard because sitting around suddenly unable to interact with the world without help she feels powerless (especially since she hasn't grown up this way). This might be a layer 3 interpretation though, and might explain how Johnny is in a coma (is that still the idea?) they were in the same accident. If this were the case, the layer 2 version would look like her before the accident, and layer 3 would have her with the long hair.

It would also give an idea how someone from the 3rd layer might still not know fully what's going on, Johnny could be in another part of the hospital and until she actually finds him, she wouldn't know what is going on. It's probably from a concussion, so it could be temporary (having her regain it if/when it's convenient to the plot). This can be done to large extent with sort of a lantern spotlight like in Zelda. Game could end with the virus problem getting solved by its respective programmers, and Maya standing and walking on her own, able to make it Johnny who finally wakes up and talks to her.

I think Johnny is the only character who exists in layer 3 and layer 2 physically.
His accident was a long time ago, the same time the virtual world was first created.
He was then plugged into the virtual world, and slowly his psyche began to influence it. Eventually his mind recreated a residual image of himself (Johnny) and a group of friends.

Johnny doesn't know he's in layer 3, he thinks layer 2 is real. All layer 2 characters think they're real unless they're a programmer in layer 3.

So, as far as I'm aware, Johnny is the only character who will 'wake up' in layer 3. The rest of them escape into the security systems as data when layer 2 collapses. Even when Johnny wakes up, he isn't the Johnny that fell asleep. He's a new Johnny, like a faded picture of the old one.
He exists to create a parallel to the rogue program. At the very end, when the program has escaped into layer 3 (as a robot, I believe we agreed on this) Johnny and the program will have a confrontation. Both came from layer 2, but everyone treats Johnny as real, even though he isn't the layer 3 Johnny they used to know, while the rogue program feels real, even though no one else thinks he is.
Johnny has literally lived inside his own mind for years, and feels uncomfortable in the real world. The program was confined to Johnny's world, and now wants freedom and to be 'real'. They're opposites, in the end, and I think it works better if only those two move into a 'real' and physical form.

I also think brunette Maya suits her better. and L1 Rosetta having glasses is good.

I agree w/ Sparrow... I think I... like the brown hair better. ><
Also, I am not sure about the hair. I was thinking something like this: http://www.wallpapersweb.com/preview/data/...Dears%20Ren.jpg
Like how it flares out. But if that's not something you're psyched about, it's fine not to have it.

I did a new sketch for Maya; so we want her to be a conservative-type, in the real world?
We can go for the T-shirt if you'd like instead. Although personally, I don't know, I'm not so sure about it either.

Oh dang, I just realized that we totally copied a character from FMA. Coincidentally her name is also Rose, and guess what kind of hair she has.

That's really weird but it's not like we actually copied her. We might change the name anyway, just thought this was funny.

Okay I see what you're saying with the glasses, her face looks kinda empty without them. I like the hair.

I agree that we shouldn't have more than Johnny be in both layers. I think in a way, having too many characters may make the plot twist a lot less impactful.

It seems like we have a solid end for this game, but before we set it in stone, can I just put something out there?

I don't even know what I think of this idea, but I'm just putting it out there if you find any interesting parts we could pick out.

Also, what kind of robot is the program going into?

We should make sure the characters don't all have the same hairstyle, it'll be confusing.

The robot is something of a loose end, though is it difficult to imagine a lab capable of creating a virtual world couldn't create a robot?
I imagined the labs spanning several stories of a very tall building. The virtual world occupies several stories within the R&D department, but it isn't the only thing there. The R&D department also has other closed projects, or projects in the works. The robot lies in one of these.

The rogue programs journey doesn't mean much if it never gets ahold of a physical body.

As for the end, I'd like it to be bittersweet. The good guys win, but the rogue program is killed, and the rogue program, while dangerous, was just a scared entity who they attacked first, and who never wanted to kill anyone (even though he did destroy thousands if not millions of AI, all of whom could be considered real). Everyone returns to their proper layers, or tries to, because that's where they feel they belong, and the programmers have to deal with the fact that Johnny layer 2 is not Johnny layer 3, and by pretending as much they have endangered many people.
I'm open to the ending being darker, but I think the audience might want something brighter.

I dunno, I guess when I made that whole layer 3 thing I was thinking I wanted there to be a whole romantic angle, or at least a friendship one.

I mean, at the end of the day, Johnny has all these friends online, and all these friends in the "real world". It just seems sort of depressing that he hasn't anyone waiting when he wakes up.

Wait, no, more than that. It's a plothole. Not having anyone, be it friends or lovers, to be happy at his coming out of there leaves a huge gap in the story. Sure, a father is fine, but alot of people are so distant with their fathers it doesn't make the same emotional impact. At least someone close to him should be helping the dad with extracting him from the game. The whole point is to leave the audience caring about the characters, and so you don't take the lot of them except one guy and throw 'em in the trash. Now, they may be nearly as hopeless as he is, but having all but one only exist in layer 1/2 is just sorta...

Heck, it needn't be any of these characters. But at least give the guy a gf or something.

And yea, let's keep working on Rosette, or use one of the earlier designs. As for the lab, you guys seen the newest Spiderman? (Remember Oscorp? Not that so much as something really futuristic looking)

And gloomy endings should be saved either for high art, if you really know what you're doing, or for if you screwed up somewhere and didn't get the best ending. Bittersweet is fine, but you'd obviously want to look forward to something for the main character (and maybe those two people trying to get the game), heck probably everyone you'd at least want it to be a fitting end to their story, not just a return to normalcy.

Maybe the robot was a failed attempt to awaken L3 Johnny. Once they realized the simulator they had created could support Johnny's brain waves they hooked him up to that instead. The rogue program somehow finds a way to correct the robot's programming so that he can use it. (This would also make the L3 Johnny vs program more interesting because the robot is very similar to Johnny)

And I get what you're saying with the not having him have anything to wake up to. Perhaps the layer 3 person who is controlling the layer 2 (was it Kevin?) was Johnny's real life best friend, and is now playing the game to find Johnny, he knows him better than everyone else, so he should be able to realize who Johnny is, even if he is drastically different.

Or he's fighting his gf. Either one might be good.

There might also be a twist where depending on how you fight the battle, the end might be radically different (you can do this with variables or a switch). If you outright destroy the virus/rogue, your friend is dead when you wake up, therefore, bittersweet/bad ending. You don't exactly do nothing, but a special attack is available for the battle (Debug or something) after you wait out several turns without damaging. That one activates the special good ending.

I think this is a good plan. Let's make a model for the rogue (and possibly various layer personas). Someone said the layer 2 was like a scrap guy or something, then there's layer 1 (if it's not tied directly to the villain), and maybe some other forms, and finally the true identity in layer 3.

Also, do we want explicitly say at any point during the game, the virus/ rogue prog was the Johnny's close person? Or should we just have it part of the ending, and make people figure out that part by doing it both ways?

If we do have anyone waiting for him in some way then it would only make it sadder. The Johnny that wakes up in layer 3 is the Johnny from layer 2, not the Johnny that fell into the coma. They are similar, but they don't have the same memories.
Unless he forms a romantic attraction with one of the characters in layer 2 and they actually turn out to be a programmer from layer 3.

In the epilogue it was discussed that Johnny goes back into the game because he doesn't feel at home in layer 3. We kind of want him to be alone, frightened, and confused when he wakes up. No one is waiting for him, no one thought he would wake up. He stumbles alone in the darkness until the programmers can find him. He doesn't care about anyone in layer 3 (unless they were controlling layer 2 characters) because he doesn't know them. What he cares about is his friends, and no one knows where they are (they escaped into the security systems).
Of course, Johnny does know one person in layer 3: The Rogue Program.

Maybe I'm being too harsh on Johnny. I'm not too sure why I just don't want Johnny to have anything for him in layer 3. He can be welcomed by all the programmers he talked to, and his sort-of father, and possible Kevin too, but nothing that would make him stay.


That would work with Kevin.
The robot being designed for L3 Johnny (or any of the L2 AI really) is a plausible explanation for it.


I'm wondering whether we're going to include the humor we had in the first drafts of the story. It seems we've definitely gotten darker and darker. Has anyone get any thoughts on this?

Yea, I dunno why either.

If he can get his memories back at the story's end, I dunno why he couldn't have it both ways, have a gf/friend in the final layer, and friends to visit in the other layers. (Of course, since both are in layer 2, he's likely to stay there over with his dad)

Bad ending could be alot like this, he doesn't really remember anyone, so he instead goes back into the 2nd layer, this time free to leave whenever he wants. Not that there's much waiting for him in this ending.



Let's go with it. It would work for the whole trying to get him out thing (the driving point of the plot), and it might work for the ending (I say might, because given the nature of online stuff that cute girl might turn out to be someone really nerdy that he doesn't feel the same way about).

A bit of humor goes a long way. I typically aren't in favor of dark endings, unless they are way over the top dark (world ends and everyone dies), and it heavily depends on the type of show. For something like Gilgamesh, it worked, because the thing started out dark (with this girl and her brother orphaned in the rain, and her almost getting molested). For this thing, it starts out like an RPG, so unless we want a Rayearth style shock ending (even then, there was a better finale) it doesn't really warrant that. That said, if you outright die on the final boss, this could be a third ending.

This is not to say we can't have an ending with a bit of what tvtropes calls FridgeHorror but the overall impression an audience wants is to like the ending.

Yeah, I kinda like the idea of Layer 3 being the good world, although completely unreal, it's the safe world, it's home.



I think at first it was, "Yay! Let's all put in our ideas and make a fun game!" and now it's evolved into, "Oh my gosh, I think we can design a really great game." Perhaps we should bring some of the humor back in layer 1, it seems like the most viable layer to just place things in.




The problem with getting his memories back is kinda the same problem with most kids shows. No matter what happened in the show, no matter how much damage the main villain did, everything gets fixed at the end. I feel like this kinda downplays the seriousness of the conflict, also it totally just wipes out Layer 2 Johnny, which the players will have probably gotten attatched to.
On this topic...anyone else unsatisfied with Legend of Korra?



Oh dang, that's harsh. XD It's realistic, but that's gotta be a bummer.



I'm still not sure how I feel about alternate endings, especially with a game this complicated.
It's not really a dark ending, just an ending with realization that things aren't what they seem. Sort of a sadness, but also an acceptance.

I disagree that a happy ending is "everything gets fixed at the end." I also disagree with the idea that a downer ending is necessarily better or more developed. (A crummy ending where nobody gets anything they want is just as shallow)

I liked Legend of Korra's ending. Maybe that's why I'm so at odds with you on this. Also, there's supposed to be at least another season (with rumors of up to 52 eps) so I think her troubles are a few more.

Real life is a tradeoff. People at the top, might have a "happy ending" economically, and a seemingly happy marriage, but both are actually teetering on the edge, and the person is filled with loneliness. Perhaps they are a great guy and well-loved and this is how they're remembered, but they sacrificed career for happiness, and died essentially penniless. I'll give you ending examples from my game (spoilering now):



Perhaps either the glitch gets fixed or it doesn't, depending on how you end. If it doesn't the character finds himself happier in layer 2, while all but ignoring his newly met father. But as a result of the "fix", while before he could actually directly immerse himself in layer two, the protections now prevent this. He can spend time with his new layer 3 family/friends, but let's say that the closest he can actually come to his layer 2 friends is on the computer.

A kid's happy ending is everything is perfect (only it's not, as there are hidden flaws in any setup). An adult's involves a tradeoff, one thing "less important" for the "more important" thing, though both are based on priorities. So our audience might actually like the 2nd best ending better than the supposed best one. Which is the whole point of multiple endings.

Also, you have no idea how easy it is to make a multiple ending battle. It's just a Victory/Defeat (No Escape) battle with a switch branch tacked on, and the all you do is teleport to one of three different screens (one for defeat, one for victory if GoodEnding is ON, one for victory else). Have a few subscreens, whenever the scenery changes. The switch is turned on if you do some special action during the last battle or do nothing for a bunch of turns or whatever we decide. If it were a long ending (involving a fully playable epilogue and separate game file), yes, but considering everything a simple ending epilogue is fine.

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Urrgh, we're back off-topic. We need to come up with more hero sketches and keep some of this stuff just on file.

Yeah I see what you mean actually. In my opinion I'd rather have L3 Johnny not regain his memories though. The game is more about layer 2 johnny, which is kinda johnny, but more of a reflection of what he wishes to be.

Back on topic. Have we designed anything for Johnny yet? I'll come up with something, give me about 30 minutes.

EDIT: Alright, these are some random things I came up with.

Layer 1 JohnnyClick to view attachment
Layer 2 JohnnyClick to view attachment
Layer 3 JohnnyClick to view attachment

sorry, for some reason this formatted weird

There's a lot of Fridge Horror implied within the game already.
An incredibly skilled company has spent years designing a fully functioning virtual reality that is completely immersive and has lifelike AI built in, this world is also somewhat capable of housing those in comas, and certainly capable of giving the paralyzed a new lease on life. But what starts all the trouble?
They're worried that people will plug into the world and start killing the AI.
When the Rogue Program destroys the virtual town, our heroes just manage to escape, but all the other AI die.
And lets not forget Matryoshka, the seemingly omnipotent entity that contains and consumes the universes within itself.
And finally, when Johnny reaches the 'real' world, he finds it so uncompelling that he spends most of the rest of his life hiding back in layer 2.

So the ending might seem happy for our layer 2 heroes, as they all return back to where they once came from, but the bad stuff:
A world full of people who want to escape to somewhere else.
Said people are also dehumanized and can't be trusted not to be violent.
Several thousand lifelike beings are killed and only the layer 2 heroes will give a damn, layer 3 saw those AI as simpler.
The universe is being consumed by a being that exists on a 'more real' plain of existence.
Layer 3 is so dark and miserable that Johnny would rather live in layer 2, but he can't anymore because he has a body (well, he could hook himself up to machines again, but he knows he doesn't belong anywhere now).
Oh, and all the characters in layer 2 have to live with the knowledge that nothing they do is 'real' and that they're one powercut away from mysteriously no longer existing, oh wait no! There's backup copies, so they've potentially died several times before and after the events of the game and just been 'rebooted' into not remembering.

Yeah, this shit is actually so full of Fridge Horror that you could have a midnight buffet of horror.
But then also, three worlds have been saved, and two of those worlds can be programmed to be perfect, so it's not all bad...


Anyway, I definitely think Johnny (and all L2 characters) should befriend some of the programmers during their journey, and possibly even form romantic attractions to some effect either within layers or across them, but I don't want those relationships to trivialize the plot.
"Oh hey Johnny! You're having an existential crisis over what is real, and your friends are all potentially dead, and there's still a rogue program out to destroy the universe... But your friend/girlfriend who you don't remember ever meeting and have only ever talked to via an ingame avatar is here and would like to talk to you!"

You're right though, there should be people he can talk to that he kind of knows (via the game) and I'm not picking on that, I just don't want to ignore the plot when that happens.
I mean, I'd very much like to see Johnny and Kevin meet in person for the first time (if Kevin does work with the programmers) and be all chill. And for five minutes they can pretend that all of this crazy stuff hasn't just happened to them.
But then we'll be right back into the thick of it.


Also, those Johnny's are looking pretty good. I especially like L3 Johnny.

Oooooh. Which is why we should definitely give him a gf from layer 1/2. "Am I supposed to know you?" And he tries to escape from her too. Or better yet, if he does know her from the game, both of them are so out of touch with existence on layer 3 and such nerds that after everything's at peace all they can think to do is go online. And yes, now I think I agree with the assessment that he more or less shouldn't regain his memory and have a scummy opinion of layer 3.

Liking those pictures.

I can get on board with that.
The question is, who would she be? Did she know Johnny before the event that put him in a coma? If so, what was their relation? To be in layer 3 she would have to originate from layer 3, but which layer does she first contact Johnny in?
And how does she tie into the plot?

We could probably make her a programmer from layer 3.
Hell, they don't all have to be programmers. She could be an artist, or handle sound effects, or work with the machines that plug you in. If she's a key character I'd like to have her developed as much as possible.

I'm thinking that, possibly, if no one minds me making up some history, this could have happened:
Early after Kevin found Johnny, he wasn't sure who Johnny was, but wanted to keep an eye on him. Back then, the virtual reality was a bit more dangerous. The focus was on realism, which meant that crime, accidents, danger, were all very much possible. Kevin was worried that something could happen, so he'd plug into the game and try to keep Johnny out of trouble. One night he'd had enough, and went to see the lead programmer to make the world safer, but he needed someone to watch Johnny. He asked one of his colleagues and she eventually accepted, but only because Kevin said this Johnny was similar to their Johnny (at this point they don't know that Johnny was hooked up to the game). While watching Johnny through the monitors, she eventually got curious and plugged in to meet him in person. The two of them got along really well, but she knew that she shouldn't get too attached, after all, he's just a virtual construct. Still, every now and then she'd try and visit him.

During the course of the game they can get closer, but this is how we're introduced to them. They're acquaintances who see each other every now and again and get along well. She may also have a L1 character.

Wait, when Kevin said to play for him was this girl playing as Kevin? That's confusing.

Should we have this many people be in all three layers? I'm afraid it's going to become really confusing.

Also, the Johnny sprites, L2 looks like egoraptor XD
So if you've noticed, what I tried to do with it is have the Layer 1 sprite be somewhat similar to the layer 3 johnny. It's Johnny's subconciouos way of trying to remind himself who he is.

No, Kevin just told her to watch (I.E through a monitor of some kind) but then she got curious and plugged herself in with her own avatar so that she could meet in person.

I think if we pace the characters out slow enough, it'll be fine to have lots of them.

In order to fully connect with the plot, she'd have to be one of the main heroes in Layer 1. Probably either of the girls (or possibly "Kevin"). Really vague I know, but let's rule out the two who haven't got the game in the start. It might be good to keep it vague, revealing that there is a 3rd layer character that's been playing the game but keeping it unknown until the final (it would give us more time to puzzle it out)

For alot of this, we'd have to figure out what the original accident was that put him in the coma. She's sort of trying to secretly pull him out of it, which would be basically her plot, but she's acting like she's involved in the party's quest. Ummm, I don't know what you mean relation, they're bf/gf. Let's say she sought him out after about a year of searching layer 2.

I think only one person besides Johnny is in layer 3, unless Kevin is too. (In the case of Kevin being the gf, we have an even weirder problem since he problem has no feelings beyond friendship for that person)

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Okay, it looks like you got the Kevin thing fixed another way though, so let's go with that instead.

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K, let's see, for the main characters... We need Kevin and Eddy (layer 1 & 2), and the layer 3 friends/gf. That and the dad, but I think we got him earlier.

Then there's some more programmers and NPCs but they aren't heroes.

I'm not very good at doing fantasy-aimed outfits. x_x So I brainstormed something for the 2nd layers.

These are ideas I came up for Kevin? I think I really like thinking outside of the box or something.
The first one is personally my favourite-- I like how he's a different and represents an ethnicity, I think it represents our community well.
I also like how he has a mohawk and a tattoo lol.


This is what I thought of for Eddy. :

He's supposed to be a bit more weighted/ heavy-built, and I guess you could think of him as the misfit of the family? I also like how it contributes to the variety of people in the community, as well as online.


EDIT: Arg, I remembered what I wanted to say! I like the father sprite. You're doing a good job at it; I'm guessing you're pretty thrilled about this project. The only thing I'm not sure about though is the jacket he has on; maybe it can be long-sleeved? 'o'

I don't think she'd fit in well with layer 1, I also don't want the programmers all knowing about Johnny being in a coma. It should be revealed during the game. They should know there was an accident, but as far as they know he's dead.

By relation I mean, how did they meet? How close were they?
It's all well and good to say that she and Johnny used to date, and then Johnny had his accident, but that was years ago. Did she move on, was their relationship serious. Is layer 2 Johnny a substitute for her, or a different but similar person who just happens to be Johnny. When Johnny wakes up as L2 Johnny, how will she feel about her new romantic interest looking exactly like her previous one?

We shouldn't force this. We have to ask ourselves if these characters would be comfortable with all this.
Lets say that she does seek Johnny out, and wakes him up. what then? She wants her Johnny, and I doubt L2 Johnny would be comfortable being treat like a guy who, for all intents and purposes, is dead.
Their relationship should progress naturally for it to work. They should like each other for who they really are. No tricks or secrets or hidden motives, which means they can only really start a relationship once they're both fully aware of the situation, but by that point they'll think it's impossible.

Basically, this is going to be a difficult relationship to write. I don't wanna over simplify it or no one will ever believe it.



In other news, Mohawk Kevin looks great.
I think he should look like that in layer 3 as well (or very similar) so that Johnny has something to connect to.
I mean, if you looked that cool, would you change how you look in layer 2?
Alternatively the dress code of the programmers might have him looking very different, and this is how he used to look (and hence how he chooses to look in layer 2). It all depends on how progressive the company is.

Kevin (left) and Eddy (right)

I need some help with the spiky mohawk. I tried to import hair onto a bald head and it just looked bad.

Ohhhh. We could have a scene where they meet each other in the street or something (she's flashbacking). Maybe he was lost, and asked directions, and she showed him around, and they stayed in touch. They were about to be married before the accident or something, but that accident (what was it, a thunderstorm, a car accident, what?) kind of ruined plans. The doctors said that might not remember anything when he comes out of it, so she's pretty much downgraded it to maybe a friendship (she isn't giving up though, and was the one who put VR equipment on his sleeping body).

As far as we know there might not be any reason why they'd assume he's dead, but there might be other reasons why he can't be told by people online. When people awake from comas, they are often disoriented and have trouble settling back into basic tasks for awhile. It may be a worry that a sudden shock ("this world isn't real and you're sleeping on life support with VR equipment to project your consciousness here" might qualify) could give his real body a cardiac arrest, so even those who know act like layer 2 is the real world until it becomes important to tell him.

Yea, we need this to sorta flow together smoothly, have its trials and faults (nobody said relationships are easy), and possibly work after a fashion. I'm not really the greatest romance writer though, so I can imagine this being a team effort.

Maybe that's why Kevin goes in originally?
He wants to see if Johnny recognizes him, but Johnny doesn't. Then later Kevin is sure it is Johnny, so she goes in too, but he still doesn't know her either.
It's a brand new Johnny.
They get along well, but it's only like Johnny, so she doesn't think he could possibly wake up. In fact, he can't wake up.
The only reason he wakes up is because Matryoshka puts him in Johnny's body, or I believe that's what was discussed.
By all standards he could wake up naturally, but I'd prefer it if it was an outside intervention. It's our way of saying their might be more layers, but we're not going to visit them.

Sounds good. He might have certain mannerisms or verbal tics that are similar, while being very much lacking the true spirit of Johnny (who he knew, what he stood for, whatever). So it's not enough like Johnny but it definitely reminds people of him.

Mowhawk Kevin is interesting, I had a different idea of him, but I actually like this a lot. In my head I had Guy from Tota in my head.

Also, the way you drew Eddy really reminds me of Dave.
Are we going to spell it Eddy? Eddie seems to fit more.

I'm not entirely sure about the Johnny about to be married idea, but it could work. Not sure how we could fit that in. I think I'm decent at writing romance.

Actually, how old are all these characters? Cause it kinda affects a lot.

I'm sure I've recycled a few pics by accident.

No idea. Alot of characters in RPGs are sort of this ideal age between 14-24. Old enough to go on an adventure, not so old as to be tied down by work. I think Ambrosia in my game's thirty, but she's basically spent several extra years of her life on the street.

Since, it was never directly vetoed, I'm still going with the whole blindness idea for the girl in question. Why?
1. Because it allows us to play more heavily into shading and sound (especially footsteps), things overlooked by many rpgs in importance in favor of visuals.
2. It also allows there to be some blindness puzzles (she can "see" normally when a friend is leading the party otherwise a pinhole surrounding everything but a little around her, so there might be sneaking out of her room with people guarding the area or something).
3. Also, it helps establish a coma cause, blunt force vehicular trauma (plane crash, train crash, or car crash). Any of these would account both from her sudden blindness (which may or may not be temporary), and his coma.
4. I'm a pretty big fan of Ice Castles, so this idea just sorta hit me.
5. The final reason? Well, sudden color change in eyes is cool. Having not been able to see herself changing in hair growth and having to dress in simpler to put on clothes (before she could wear stockings, now they'd run if she put them on), it isn't just him that has changed but also her.

So, yea the whole thing is one big metaphor for whether or not two people can love each other again, now that time has passed and they've become different people (won't be easy).



Alethea? Left is before the accident, right awhile after.

I'm not entirely on board with the blindness idea, I feel like we're overcomplicating all of this. It seems like we're trying to make everyone the main focus of this game, which is quite hard to do. But if everyone else likes this idea and builds apon it I'll go with it. I kinda like the blindness puzzles but it just seems weird that everyone has had some sort of incident. Unless the game company is also experimenting with different human health research things as well.

I do like the design of the characters.

I think the names of the Layer 3 characters should be less obscure, layer 3 is the modern world in a sense, layer 1 gets the more fantastic names and layer 2 has a bit of leniancy as well, but I think we should keep layer 3 to things like Kevin, Johnny, Rebecca, and such.

EDIT: Actually screw that, odd names are cool

Remember, you guys said Layer 3 was basically a CrapsackWorld. A place like that is dangerous, with big machines that run too fast, and have a tendency to crush pedestrians in the regular course of a day (we may highlight this point by having a close call (or a disturbingly close hit) followed by indifference on the part of the driver). Accidents happen. Also, not everyone, just that they were on a date (or something) and in the same car, and got hit by like a truck or bus. Both of them would come out different.

I grew up with final fantasy series. I know alot of the games at the time were going with "let's have everything centered around a single hero", but alot of games at the time also had the whole "silent hero" going on. Centered around the hero + hero says nothing and has no discernible personality = alot of games were dumb (Dragon Quest sort of averted this later by making it somewhat clear through body language what the hero's personality was, despite saying nothing. It also had funny parts like the fact that the hero would give a silent shout). You either make your main character very distinctive and weird (like Cloud in FFVII, who is basically shown to have boasted about his entire backstory) or you make multiple lead characters (like some of the others in the series, such as FF3) and have a strong mix of story and character driven. Besides being comatose, Johnny still comes across much like most heroes, so we have to compensate by building our other characters and try to get him to keep up through interaction.

(It's Greek, it means "truth" not only is she seeking the truth about her bf/ex/whatever but if we do play up the whole blind thing you've got the whole "only blind ppl know the truth" cliche going on, used with blind prophets and such. Speaking above about Final Fantasy, and tvtropes...)

Also, what about out of context hints from layer 3 early (nothing to give away that it is layer 3 until we introduce, but well you've seen movies where something isn't important until later, but it's brought up in the beginning)?

The only problem I see with her being blind is that I fail to see her purpose in Layer 3.
What does she actually do in the lab? I doubt she could code or design anything if she's blind, or test the game, or examine the AI.

For a long time no one knows that Johnny is alive in Layer 2 (and even then it isn't technically Johnny) so there's really no reason for her to be moping around the lab unless she's part of the project. Not everything is about Johnny, most of the programmers are just doing their job.

So what the company has been doing is creating a very realistic life simulator, and recently they've begun hooking people up to the machine to see if they can live life in this new world. They've used people with disabilities so that the part of them that is unaware can become fully immersed in the world. Dang, layer 3 is starting to sound pretty unethical. Fake worlds, false reality. Adventure quest?