they've only plugged Johnny in, haven't they?
And that was because his Father was desperate.

But yeah, they're not terribly ethical.

I thought Bulma was saying the blind girl was in the world too.

So I'm assuming the father is a little bit crazy, he cares more about his son than rational means.

yeah she is, but she enters the game voluntarily.
If I'm following correctly anyway.

I'd say the Father is depressed more so than crazy, but I think we mean pretty much the same thing

Ah crud, I knew it.

My net gave out right after I tried to post.

Yea, she enters the game voluntarily, believing she can save him. The dad believes this too, and allows her to stay even if she puts herself in danger, for this chance. The other programmers? Well, they are experimenting with simulating vision directly through the brain (sort of Star Trek glasses), and is testing it on live subjects using the game. Lucky for her they finally got it right, the other subjects' brains got fried.

And yes, MEands, that could be why Johnny heads to layer 2 the first thing he can.

As for her usefulness, well she is a fairly adept programmer even still (if you give her a braille keyboard). And she can at least make do with her other senses.

One thing I want to make sure stays in the plot is the fact that Layer 2 Johnny doesn't know that he is Layer 3 Johnny. Only 2 of the layer 2 characters are aware that there even is a layer 3.
Perhaps there could be a little bit of a conflict between Layer 2 Kevin and Layer 2 blind girl. Kevin is still trying to make sure that this person is actually Johnny, and he wants to do it in a careful fashion, but the blind girl is trying to get Johnny to wake up through the use of emotion, so Kevin is always disproving of her. Perhaps Kevin might even be a higher job rank than her and has actually told her that if she tries to use emotion on Johnny that she would be removed from the project.
We could make a scene where she's like, "Johnny, there's something I have to tell you", normal players would think of it as her finally confessing her feelings, but really she was about to tell him about layer 3. Of course she gets interrupted before she can tell him anything.

That would work. That would create some really interesting scenes the second time you play through the game.
So kevin is being cautious. He's realizes that Johnny layer 2 is very similar to Johnny layer 3, but not exactly the same.
Johnny layer 2 is also Kevin's friend, so he doesn't want to tell him about layer 3, only to find out it's not the real Johnny. If he did that, he would be ruining his friend's life.

Perhaps Johnny layer 3 was very impulsive, but Johnny layer 2 is more withdrawn (a possible result of the accident) and cautious. It's not very noticeable, but when it comes to very serious things, Johnny layer 3 would always push for an immediate resolution, while Johnny layer 2 is a lot more like Kevin in regards to being cautious.
So when Johnny wakes up in layer 2, he's conflicted over whether he thinks he should have been told earlier.

Knowing any drama, she gets interrupted frequently, sometimes by events, sometimes by Kevin's meddling. At some point the audience can probably piece it together but the other characters still don't know. And yea, Johnny should definitely not be in the loop about layer 3 Johnny. Which of the characters should be the girl in layer 1 and 2? I was thinking either Maya or Rosette, but I can't narrow it down. Or should it be just some weird stranger that shows up after the first playthrough of layer 1?

I think it should be an NPC, so a person that Johnny knows, but who isn't a party member.

She could be the one who explains the programmers to Johnny for the first time, once the program goes rogue.
I don't know whether Kevin would reveal himself at this point, or whether he would still keep himself being a programmer secret (perhaps he's worried what Johnny thinks).
anyway, I'd like for her to have kept her distance from Johnny (because of Kevin) until the events of the game. Once the program goes rogue, she has to talk to Johnny, and that causes them to grow closer.

So she's a character we see very little of in layer 2, but more once the REAL action starts happening.
She should be properly introduced as a main character just before the programmers explain everything, or at the same time.

Ooh I get it. I like that. So what it seems like right now is this is the kind of game you'll need to play twice to understand. What if we place the girl in random places in layer 2, sort of a thing in playthrough 2 when you're like, "Oh gosh, she's been watching Johnny". That might be a little weird, but it's just a thought.

So maybe she appears really shy when they run into her, but actually she's just intimidated by Kevin.

Her being intimidated makes sense. Johnny considers her a friend (albeit one she rarely sees) but Kevin wants her to keep her distance until they're all sure.

Perhaps she'll be an extra in the background in a few scenes, and if you talk to her you get some pretty in depth dialogue.
If Kevin is in your party, then the dialogue is pretty short.
If Kevin is not in your party, then it's possible to have a rather long conversation (the player has the option to skip if they see fit) and possibly even recruit her into the party temporarily.

And in layer 1. She might be one of those travelling shopkeepers. Better yet, she might sound like a crazy shopkeep at first, but have it make more sense later once we have the context.

I like the idea of having her be an optional extra character. Perhaps have various meeting places, and if you've visited them all (and Kevin is out of the party), you get a join option. Each of her sayings should have a short and long version.

For layer 2, she might not join until the actual key event, though, when Kevin agrees it's probably time to tell things.

It wouldn't make much sense for a player of an mmo to be a shopkeeper. I think only the 6 main l2 people are playing the mmo.

Well, maybe shopkeeper is the wrong word.

Wandering about the world, selling goods (in other words, stalking the player). More like a travelling salesman/woman.And yea, maybe as a player it would be wrong, but it's give a valid excuse to constantly be following the party.

I dunno, this is just my best idea at the moment.

Well she just recently noticed that the boy was Johnny, and Kevin doesn't want her around him, so she might actually be restricted from Layer 1 in order to protect Johnny.

Mkay. We should probably vote on this or something, cause this is whether or not a character will even appear somewhere.

I vote yes, but only as an inobtrusive character, like a wandering shopkeeper (Maybe)
One other vote, no. Any others?

I think I'd prefer if her first appearance was in layer 2.
Then again, layer 1 is the pet project of the programmers, so it's still possible she has some kind of involvement in it (depending on her job) so it's entirely possible for her to be in layer 1.

So I'm fine either way, but I'd prefer layer 2

Perhaps we just have other players walking around, and some of them are just...odd.
It would make it seem a little more like an mmo, but would just seem like a cool gimmick, not a giveaway that it's a game.

I'm for that. Perhaps most of them are interested in buying/selling items (as people tend to do online).

Depending on how quirky the game is supposed to be, these items sold could be anything from mock serious ("The Holy Eye of Ishtar") to sorta funny items ("I'm selling fish guts, anyone wanna buy?").

I'm all for fish guts.

Why not both?

"Hey! I'll trade you my Holy Eye of Ishtar for three thousand fish guts"

Only if it's Marik Ishtar ;D

So we're kinda off topic now. We don't have that much info regarding Johnny's other friends, the two girls.

Mkay, let's get back on topic. I forgot what we missed about those two. Do we have any layer 2 info?

Bleh... post inactivity.

Alright, so... i noticed that there was some discussion about the Junkyard owner's design. And lol, Bulma, i read your post in the char design topic. o.o

Yeah, so... I came up with something. Here:

There're three designs because I wasn't sure what you all like + I want us all to find something close to what we like.

The first is basically a friendly-type of dude. He likes helping wherever he can, and enjoys caring for others.
The second is a bit of a goth/rebel-type of girl. She enjoys designing fashion, though, and is great at engineering.
The third is an annoying-type of kid, (lol). He's supposed to be maybe 14 or so, and like a nerdy, bossy kid.
------------------------

Also... Rosetta is like the brave-type? She could be a little unsure about how to express her feelings to Johnny though maybe.. despite how confident she seems. So she ends up following fashion trends and tips to try to get his attention, but she doesn't know that she tries too hard.

And Maya... umm, hmm. She could be the shy-type but also feel threatened by Rosetta. So she ends up acting a bit cold towards her + actually subtly bullies her.

Those three characters look like they should be Johnny, Rosetta, and...idk someone else. I love the design of the last guy but idk where he fits in. Maybe that's Kevin's avatar? Or wait, did we say Kevin was going to look the same in both worlds?

I still have this very distinct picture of the junkyard owner in my head, he looks a lot like this

Perhaps a bit older though.

Okay, so there's Rosetta and I can't even remember the other girl. :\

So Rosetta is really rich right? Perhaps she is the younger sibling of Eddie, who, because of their wealth, was able to invite Jessica to live with them.

I think we had Maya on page two. We need more past info on some of these characters, where they came from and such.

Those grey bands need to be filled in with a fishnet effect, and somehow get white stripes to go with the curves of her dress.

While bulma was posting, I drew up yet another design for the junkyard guy.

Perhaps I might have overdone it with the rough, messy look, but I wanted it to be apparent that this guy spends 80% of his time in a Junkyard. Mess with it all you want.

Hey jiggly, you can edit right? The girl above, can you do something to give her fishnet-like arm thing like the picture, and maybe fix the dress? There's only so much online software can do.



This one's based off a flattened chest female template. I added a rough five o' clock shadow, and removed chest lines, and made sleeve tear marks. I'd make the legs hairy but not really sure how to do that. Hold on, lemme try a few things...



Sorta.

So nobody likes my take of the junkyard guy? :|

So Rosetta is kinda the outgoing girl while Maya is the introvert right?

For Rose and Maya, i'm pretty sure. I know we had to reverse them at some point anyways.

And XDDDD, idk, I wanted the junkyard guy/person to be interesting and intriguing. Like they have a life story and are something beyond a... stereotype..? ..
That's just my opinion anyway. Originally I wanted him to look like yours, or make an old-man "inventor" type.

I was just talking about the design of the guy. He looks stereotypical cause that's the general clothes they wear, he can still have a pretty cool backstory.

Except we're really focusing on him as a person and an entity, not really on his life.

Hm..

Well, it might be a sort online/offline difference, where they're quite apart from what they look like in layer 1.

Yea, we should background events for these characters. Where's Rosette from, and Maya? What do they do in their off hours from the game? Characters are less a stereotype when we flesh them out.

The Rogue Program wasn't/isn't always a bad guy. He just kind of lands in the position. He doesn't want to kill, and only resorts to it in anger and when he's threatened. In fact, I imagined him looking more like a good guy. He chases the layer 2 kids off his property because they're breaking the law and it's dangerous. He's not an antagonist by choice basically. From his perspective, he's protecting the characters, and then when he goes rogue, he believes he's showing them the way out.
He's a nice guy who goes mad.
In a different story he could be a hero, so a design that reflects that would be good. I'm thinking he's quite a simple guy, probably a plain white shirt and denim jeans, sometimes where's half a jumpsuit tied at the waist. These are good clothes for that environment. They're also probably filthy. He probably spends most his time there, so he's not exactly groomed for outside, but he does care how he looks (he's not a slob). So medium length stubble, and kind of straggly hair.
Hell, maybe at one point the L2 characters see him out and about the town (before he goes rogue) and he's shaved and cut his hair and is *gosh* wearing a suit! Because, you know, people actually have lives outside of their work. Teachers shop in supermarkets and junkyard owners go to social events. So he doesn't get out much, but he's not a living stereotype either.
In one of the threads we talked about a part the players can find that means he lets them off when he catches them. Maybe he uses the scrap parts to rebuild cars and sell them on? Or maybe he's working on a classic car for himself.
These are things that make up who he is and what he looks like. This classic car he might be building, maybe he owns a hat with the company logo on it.

Anyone else got ideas for him? We really have to get him designed.

We mentioned how the item found might make things easier later. Maybe it's not equipment at all but a usable item! Such as, a favorite wrench or whatever, that if used in a battle vs him at the final part (however we play it), it causes a short memory cutscene which changes his character to one with reduced stats and hp. That is, his memories of the past make him take it easy on you.

Urrgh, I'm tired of redesigning this guy...



This was the last one. Ummm, let's say on average he looks like this (he's a hard worker, and people are always bothering him for parts, so he doesn't always have time to clean up). And after he cleans up...



Shorter hair, clean shave, nice jacket, and some decent jeans and boots.

Maybe black hair? We're gonna need to do some editing to get him to look dirty and sooty. Also, the jacket doesn't exactly seem like something a junkyard owner would wear.

I dunno, I kinda imagined the shirt a little shorter maybe..?.. And I'm not sure about the black hair;
kind of makes me think of Gankutsuo, or like a vampire..? (' ' )


Also, I imagined the jeans as like a washed-out jeans kind of thing. Like an 80s dude haha. But if it's too much work, it's okk.



Hmm.. maybe a Wallstreet buisnessman look for the formal thing? Like the long coat look. Or even a white blouse w/ a tie?

I like this design, though I'm not sure about wallstreet businessman. He probably wouldn't have enough money to buy something particularly nice. Maybe a brown jacket.

Ooh I like this, I think brown hair works with this design. When I was saying black hair i was thinking more with slicked back hair. Sprites are hard to see designs from.

But I really like this design, I think it's perfect for a really nice guy who ends up getting his life ruined.

@sparrow: Hmm; well for the jacket, I was thinking something more like... Bargain Mart-ey? Like kinda rough and old?:

I drew a version of him with the jacket too.. I can't tell which one I like more.
He originally had black-ish pants though, and I have to admit they looked pretty great.

@MEa: Thanks >< the black hair sounds cool with the formal outfit actually.
I'm taking this as an opportunity for more practise. (!)

Both of the new designs look good. The first could be something he wears when he's done working, the second could be something more formal he wears.
Either would work though.

(Aww crud, I lost the picture)

I came up with a few drawings (trench coat, and jacket). I'm going with black hair. Now it might actually be brown, but let's think here, he's on a junkyard working with auto parts. He's probably covered with soot and axel grease and all manner of things to the point where his hair is filthy and difficult to clean. When he finally does clean up, it would make a huge difference in his appearance.

Also, if someone wants to tweak this a bit, we could have streaks of brown and other colors, to make this less like natural black, and more like a "sooty" black, this would be great. I'm gonna tweak Rosetta some more.

I finally finished the striped red/white dress Rosetta had. Along with the fishnet mesh she was wearing.

I'm sorry if this action constitutes stealing of any thunder, but I fiddled with your Rosetta sprite's dress so that the stripes followed the contours a little bit more. The ones with the lighter background are the ones that I have messed with so far:


Edit: photobucket seems to be acting a little wonky. If the charset doesn't show up in this post, blame photobucket.

Not at all, I encourage stealing. Stealing constitutes helping (well, unless you go run off and make a game with it, and then... well, I still don't care). I like the more contoured appearance, she was looking like a fattie, and I couldn't figure out how to fix it.

For that matter, you're welcome to "help" with the rogue program (please do it, I've redone numerous times, and ppl keep changing their minds).

The rogue program is such a central character, it's hard to decide what he looks like.
I think dark brown/black hair would be fine either way. And his work clothes WOULD be covered in all sorts.

I think the biggest problem is putting all of that detail on a sprite. We can represent it better with face images, still art, and possibly flash animations (if these are a thing we do), but putting the stubble, the greasy hair, the oil splatters, and all that jazz, onto a sprite? difficult to do (it's why I don't sprite in RM).

Keep in mind that I would prefer to only get to spriting a character when the design for that particular version of that character is completely decided upon. I can make the junkyard guy's sprite (he's not considered rogue until after he dies for the first time, right?), it's just that with the aforementioned indecision it's hard to know if I should jump on any particular bandwagon for any particular design.

(and by stealing thunder, I meant it in a I-grabbed-the-glory-of-your-hard-work-by-changing-a-couple-pixels-to-make-it-look-slightly-better, not in a literal I-yoinked-your-sprite-ha-ha-ha sort of way. I think I might have spun the expression the wrong way in my post or something.)

I think the issue with the junkyard guy is his appearance varies depending what we're talking about.

A guy who lives on premise of a landfill (very dirty and hairy, with everything from wood bits, to dirt, to shards of glass)?

A guy who lives in a car junkyard (sorta car mechanic type, with more grime. Clothing might be oil soaked and/or eaten up by battery acid)

A guy in a waste disposal/incineration yard (covered in soot, to the point where his hair could be brown and his face pale, and you wouldn't know)

A guy in a recycling bin that resells goods that couldn't be trashed (sorta respectable looking)

It took about five hours in real time, so no I don't mind it getting done by someone else. I'd mind it not getting done and having to try that rounded look myself alot more.

I think he works in like a scrapyard. Like nothing huge like cars, but enough to make large piles to hide in.
He's probably not that wealthy, but he does have a nice home to go to after work. (He works late)

I'd say scrapyard as well, but there could probably be some cars in there. I imagined there being lots of old machinery.
Early in Final Fantasy VII there's a part where AVALANCHE scale a wall, and they have to climb scaffolding, put batteries in places, climb cables, and all that jazz. I imagined something like that for the scrapyard, but more horizontal. Walking along rusty parts of old cranes, sliding down the cable, leaping from piles of scrap metal, landing on a couch, all sorts.

Oh I like that. Parkour! Ooh what if there are cars and stuff that if you make a bad leap or something you'll se the alarm off and the guy will come after you.

This is kinda making me think of the puzzles in Phantom Hourglass.

I like the car alarm, we can work with that.

I'm thinking we can make parts of the puzzle complicated as well. Like there's an area with extra items that can only be reached if you have the best jumper on your team, but they're at the bottom of a pile and you're at the top. However, if you grab a rope near the beginning, you can lower it to them later, then they make the jump, move a crane's arm around, and give you access to a new area.

Like, there's jumps that only some characters can make, machinery that only some characters can move, etc etc. If you don't choose the right character, you lose the puzzle, get caught, and the game continues.