I figured it was time to try and get a little substance behind this project beyond our somewhat vague musings. So here we'll discuss in-depth the first layer and hopefully get a few maps, etc. on the go.
So a little refresher on the first layer;
-its an mmo, its undecided what genre but I think sword and sorcery is the general consideration.
-its the most explicit example of 'game-within-a-game' and should reflect that: its not bound by the conventions of reality, and the characters are aware of this.
-we need to decide on a specific engine; I advocated VX and VXA for layers one and two for their similarity in graphics, enforcing the whole ga(game)me motif but I'm easy like Lionel Richie. All I ask if you want to change this is provide a reason other than you simply want it that way.

So discuss away on anything you would like to see included; but try to keep it in line with the plot discussed here http://www.rpgrevolution.com/forums/index....=56326&st=0

Thank you Kaust I was just thinking this topic needed to be made.

I definitely think that any puzzles in this layer should be group orientated. I can think of at least three ways to event (in VX) puzzles that require player-switching to complete. As far as plot goes though, I was thinking sort of like a WoW raid. I've never played WoW, but I have a vague idea of what one is, and I imagine it's something our characters would enjoy. Storm a castle, solve some puzzles, kill the bad guy...

I'm also torn between whether they talk via text, or whether they talk through microphones and we just happen to see what they're saying...

I was thinking more text box orientated like this:
Click to view attachment
It would also be an easy way to add to the illusion of other players as we could just add stuff to it at intervals as if people were talking.
Mics would be cool and could be a good way to get more people involved (just have everyone say a little something, kinda like the cameos we're doing), but I think it'd be hard to find the balance between too much and too little speech, whereas the text box is more passive.

Also I was thinking that maybe we dont have control over the whole party in this layer, as if the others were also players but that could get difficult/frustrating if going on for too long.

Heres a rough concept design of the kind of area I imagined the starting dungeon to be in.
From what I remember the prisoners keep asking to be saved even once rescued?
Maybe the characters should have a quest description that doesn't fully match up to the location they've traveled to.
Kind of to hint that something isn't completely right.


Admitedly, the perspective and sizing isnt great.

Hmmm, you'd have to make some sort of custom code. It recreates the text messing with the illusion of slow scrolling.

When should they start? In town? In the middle of a field? In a dungeon? In the final dungeon with a "how did we get here" flashback?

Me likey.
My original idea was that they are having a dramatic pep talk just before storming the castle/dungeon. The illusion that this is 'real' should be there, but at the same time it should also seem like a game to those paying attention.

Same goes for the text. It should seem 'real' but also like it's a game.
Getting the balance just right is key here. Overshooting or undershooting could kill the project.

The idea of group puzzles is a good one. You should have the option for the player to switch between his four party members (who are displayed physically as four sprites, instead of one). You could have switches where they act cooperatively to open gates and free fair maidens (as per the plot). Advancing through the dungeon, with various tropes such as visible level-ups, buffs, skill requirements ("your skill is too low to equip this sword... oh man!") and other doohickeys.

I really like all these ideas, but let me just offer a couple critiques on them





EDIT: As for layers, if we can't decide on anything for a specific reason, we might as well use vxa, the new system will attract more users I feel.

I agree that we don't want to clutter up the space with text-boxes, and try to make it a "realistic" MMO, because that is just confusing. But I believe we should make a representation of an MMO, that isn't exactly like an MMO, per se, but is similar to an MMO. I mean that Layer 1 shares qualities of an MMO, but does not behave entirely like an MMO.



I disagree on this point. I think that the characters of the 3 layers are all equally intelligent, but they are just not self-realized yet. The Layer 1 individuals are 1-dimensional characters, with obvious intentions and simple ambitions. Life is simple for them, good guys are always good, evil guys are always evil. Simple morality, simple good vs. evil story, we are raiding the evil dungeon to save good people and kill the evil monsters. It's a simple world.

The Layer 2 individuals realize that morality is not quite as simple as the public thinks, it's almost as if the whole world is in a dream state. For example, if the group of friends asks the simulated people about a programmer, they'll say "What programmer?" and move on. If you persist in asking them what is the problem, they will try to put you back in your place, so as not to question the environment you are put in. The perfect example of this is THE TRUMAN SHOW.

Layer 3 individuals are 3-dimensional, knowing both good and evil in the cruel, harsh world of reality. These characters display both good and evil qualities, in the "real" world with "real" people. But the reality is, the 2d world is the best world that exists. People are not cynical there, no bigotry happens. People are scripted to be at peace with the world, something that Layer 3 could learn from. I would imagine that Layer 3 characters will learn from their Layer 2 creations to help become better people, and less cynical etc.

But yeah, I don't believe it's a matter of intelligence, per se, but rather the nature of their character.

You know, I was totally thinking about that movie in relation to layer two, especially with one of the scenes taking place on an incomplete beach.

Back to the correct layer, I whipped up a sketch of a small part of an area in a town.

What sorts of other building motifs should be on houses and buildings? Also, what other radically different building types could be featured in other towns?

Reading some of the posts I think there is some confusion, I'll try to clear it up.
-Layer one is a game that the layer two characters are consciously playing; they adhere to certain laws (they cant fly unless thats a part of the game, for example), but morality is not a big issue unless their roleplayers as well. They should make references that will confuse the player to things like their outside life, etc. just not too heavy-handedly (possibly things like "You still seeing that girl later?" that are layerally ambiguous).
-The characters of layers one and two are the same (personality-wise, and for ease of recognition will likely have some similar characteristics physically, ie red spiky hair or whatever). Layer 3 is the closest to our reality, its sorta the point where the player kicks themselves for not realising layer two was also a game and start questioning the possibility of a fourth, and so on, layer.
Anyways, these points are not up for discussion here, please go to the Plot thread for any variations you'd like to see on what I just posted.

Shiny has made two very important points; we need to establish the environment and also any distinct art style we might want to use (I'd suggest overt pixellation but it may drive people away), and this is also why I mentioned engines; though we'll likely use some custom graphics I dont doubt many contributors will use the rtp which have distinct looks (and VXs blockiness could again work in our favour if we were to try pixellation).

Oops, sorry Kaust, I'll try not to bring story into this thread. I kind of imagined the art cute and pixely like Spelunky. Or something like the dungeons in FFIV. In fact, that's probably the very thing we're parodying, is it?

Don't worry about it Benny, I appreciate it can be hard not to; the two are intrinsically linked and so any changes to one potentially affects the other. Expressing any and all ideas are beneficial and communication is a must on such a large-scale project, it just helps to try and keep things organised a bit =]

Kaust is right. We want input, this is a big project, but we've got to keep input to the right areas man this is all getting complicated.

I just realised now that we could use 'associated colours' to represent the three layers. Layer 1 is a game, a pretty violent game, so I'm thinking red. Layer 2 is meant to appear natural (truman style) so green? And Layer 3 is quite a cold world, mechanical, computers, etc, so maybe blue.

I'm not saying we make the colours too obvious, just as a general colour scheme, mood setting, symbolism, that kind of thing.

I'm not a fan of colour schemes; it comes off as a very two-dimensional motif unless the project is in some way relevant to colours (like the significance of rainbows in Kirby, for example), as well as the colour's 'meaning' being unique to individuals(red for hate could also be red for love).

But, as ever, if others are into the idea and we can accomplish it tastefully then it has my backing.

So far these sketches are pretty good. As I asked before, where do we start? The beginning position adds context, for example:

• Bar- Characters discuss their plans, and open with their specific motivations. A group plan is formed. However, it's also done a zillion times in Dungeons & Dragons
• Around Town- Characters meet up, or a villain crosses their path. Actually somewhat uncommon to just start with events in town.
• Far, Far Away- Big splashy prologue, with villains discussing their plans, wars happening, or comets hitting Earth. Kinda doesn't work for a game where the initial premise is actually fake, but it can be done to lend to a good trick story.
• Field- The characters explore some area one day, and happen upon some mysterious people doing nefarious things.
• First Dungeon- This is a standard in alot of RpgMaker RPGS. But unless done well, with character development, it kinda leaves flat characters (okay if the game isn't real, but it might be a bad idea to reveal this too early)
• Forest- Usually the lost variety. Often has elements of How Did We Get Here and the Field.
• Final Dungeon- There's three varieties:
  1. How Did We Get Here- A flashback from the final dungeon. Often with the twist that the final dungeon really isn't there's one more.
  2. Final Dungeon, But New Story- Lufia, Fortress of Doom is a good example. They start from where Lufia II actually ended, and then show a later generation fighting off the threat. (The example here would simply be starting at the final dungeon, and after beating the big bad, the game turns out to be a game)
  3. Recurring Motif- Kingdom Hearts sorta has this. The final dungeon is just a dream, or perhaps is the hero's home, which shows up later in the story.

The starting position can make or break an RPG. I've discarded several dozen RPGs just because they started wrong making for bad character development.

I didn't mean it to be too bold, just a general motif. Like, it's a red evening in layer 1, and everything is lit by fire. Layer 2 is mostly day time, and I imagined it being more picturesque, so flowers, grass, sand (I'm lumping yellow with green). Layer 3 is very modern, so I thought blue.

Maybe not my best idea, it's just a theme to help us art it up.
Layer 1 is old and rusted.
Layer 2 is fresh and welcoming
Layer 3 is cold and modern.

To bring it back, that means layer 1 is quite a dark place. The ground is muddy, the houses are wooden and rusted. The castle they raid is draped with purple and gold banners over grey walls and brown steps. Red and orange flames flicker. The nature around the area is decayed and rotting.

This seems good. Although I imagined this:
Layer 1 - happy and ignorant
Layer 2 - content and tolerant
Layer 3 - depressed and cynical

Perhaps layer 1 could look more of a nostalgic old than a ruins old? You must remember that it's a game targeted toward the interests of The Child so they most likely wouldn't make everything look crazy grotesque and tired (though that would be cool, I don't think that style would work for what we're trying to shoot for), they would try to make it look inviting but with its own sort of ancient charm permeating pretty much everything.
I would envision layer 1 with its own invented history that may or may not ever be told in-game, but with its effects that could be seen nearly everywhere. For example, the great random but slightly important airship battle of 3536 BG (Before Gameplay) may have caused a terrible airship crash, leading to an entire village eventually being built upon the grounded wreckage or something like that.

We should remember though, for the layer 2 heroes, layer 1 is the end of a big journey. They have leveled up, they have prepared for this moment, to them, this is a big bad guy.
Not the biggest bad guy of all, but a big one. The way online games build up boss battles. The area around the boss should probably reflect that. I'm not saying we make it grotesque, but if it's all peaceful and rustic then we don't get the sense of urgency we want.

Remember, the player will be seeing this as some big game changing moment. Something big is going down. We can't pull that off with a first dungeon, or a peaceful little village. We need the characters focused on some big challenge, that way it'll be believable that this is real.
At the same time, if we overdo it then it's cliche.

So yeah, we really have to build an atmosphere of urgency, but without it being too dark I guess.
I really do like the idea of them being gathered around a fire, discussing what they're about to do. The sky is either a dark blue or dark red. The moon glows behind them and to the right, where we can also see the castle/dungeon. We get a chance to see the characters talk, and learn what's going on.

Let's try this. Hero meets villain big bad either at or outside (see above) their home village. I may in fact be tranquil or peaceful, but perhaps the villain brings war and/or destruction to such a village (let's go with that picture above as the village). If we really want it to be unclear that it's an MMO, perhaps the characters have different starting towns (they chose them when first logging in), and as part of the world event, he messed each of them up too. One might be a plains (hero/warrior) town, one a forest (wizards/priests) town, one a mountain (archers) town, one a swamp (rogues) town. Sorta like Maplestory with its class towns. Anyway, the hero meets the others rather than having an initial large party.

The first dungeon shouldn't really be at all difficult. The hero should has some basic self-healing First Aid technique (could make this a TP rather than MP skill) in addition to fighting skills. There should be mainly weak enemies (with maybe one tougher enemy type that gives a lot of EXP), and some basic rock moving or pressure plate puzzles. Maybe some sort of tutorial style boss. The second boss/dungeon can require more strategy, since you probably have a priest and a wizard.

Also, let's divide damage by Melee and Ranged, along with whatever magical elements we choose. Spiders and such are melee with ranged immunity (hard to hit), bats and other flying enemies are ranged with melee immunity (hard to hit from the ground), and everything else can be hit with varying degrees by either. This is sorta like Final Fantasy X, and is why you have archers.

They sorta head out to some deep underground dungeon with possibly some old underground castle ruins after a party is assembled. This jives both with an actual adventure, and the contents of an MMO.

From what I'm hearing, it sounds like a first dungeon isn't necesarry.
I think what we're doing is starting the game off at the final dungeon, possibly a little before.
It's fun in a game if they throw you into a scenario without explaining much, but at the same time, this might give it away that you're not going to stay in this world for a long time.
I imagine that since this is the final dungeon it should be very dark, perhaps prison cells?
We still need to decide what it is the protagonists are fighting.

Well, if we do start at the final dungeon, we should at least try to establish context (who is this villain, who are the characters, with a few quick background scenes). This why we could also include some of these town pictures, even if only as a brief scene of them.

Just remember that this is supposed to resemble an MMO and last time I checked, most of them don't have "final" bosses, just really strong bosses.
Perhaps they're on a typical quest to obtain some sort of McGuffin for a random NPC to obtain a special event item. Remember that the players know that they don't have that much time until the update boots them off the server for "maintenance", thus giving them a reason to go after the special event item quest at that particular level instead of a higher one.

So they're likely starting from a hub-town or whatever en-route to the area where the event's dungeon lies.

You know what would be fun. What if we throw the player into the town right before the dungeon, "Okay guys, we don't have much time, get all the items you need and then we'll go to the dungeon"
The player starts off with a large sum of money with which to buy new items to help them in the next dungeon. Now this being an MMO, there are at least 30 of each type of item for sale, thus giving the player freedom to 'customize' almost every aspect of battle.
Maybe there will even be some out of battle items for sale, such as speed enhancers, or monster evasions.

That sort of thing is excellent (though in mmos you can typically see the enemy on the map and choose whether to engage them).

I'd say it'd be most effective to simply start just outside or possibly even already inside the castle and then the serverwide announcement is made (as opposed to knowing prior), making it a more 'actiony' introduction than sitting round waiting for people to finish a conversation and then having to fight and travel to get there only to be logged out. This would also explain the characters' sense of urgency (as being forcibly logged off usually results in death and death often comes with a penalty) to try and finish the dungeon. Possibly this is an area to be deleted during the maintenance, thus why they want to achieve whatever reward, or maybe just try to escape, before maintenance begins.
Also I don't think there should be standing around and talking at all. As a fairly experienced mmo player I can tell you something like that is a rarity since its usually pretty easy to type and fight common enemies at the same time.

I would like to find a way to make the characters customizable, 'building' characters is a huge part of many mmos, I'm just not sure it'll work though, since it'd be time-consuming at the start and then we're destroying the layer so soon anyways.

Something I did a while back - maybe could be tidied up-

Kaust: That's true what you're saying, I guess this part would only work if we want the 1st layer to be a lot longer. And yeah, maybe the game starts in a battle, and the synopsis is explained during the battle, like, each turn they explain a little more. We could make the enemy they're fighting invincible until the conversation ends.

kaz: That's almost exactly the feel I was thinking this dungeon should have. Awesome job.

Good thinking MEands; How about then if we are only able to control the main character (could still heal and change equipment of other party members) and use an abs script? We could orchestrate some really awesome battles through the castle and would look pretty mmo-like.

Oh yeah. The only thing is from what I've seen, abs seems kinda glitchy and really spammy.
Maybe I've only seen bad examples though. We have a lot of people on this project so we could probably pull it off.

Yeah from my experience, even the best ABS games for RPG Maker don't work well. I reckon we invent our own system, which is a mixture of action-based and turn-based systems. Similar to Final Fantasy's gauge system, except, well, more custom to our needs. It needs to fit the overall feel of our game, and I don't think ABS brings that dimension.

What MMOs have you played? Maplestory has the Black Magician (in theory, though the patch never really comes around), WoW had some promo about facing some such boss (dun play WoW, so I dunno), basically they're level 90+ bosses, which is the same difference. The plot would be less detailed than normal given the nature of the game, but otherwise you could call it a final boss. The difference from an MMO and a typical RPG being you at most get some sort of award (or a message saying "MargeXIII beat The Rive Ooze, congratulations!") and keep playing. And can often re-challenge the final boss.

Fetch quests would very much be online games, as would the idea of hub-towns.



If we could figure out a targetting system (something like where it pauses hero and monster movement, and has some sort of cursor choice), we could have something more like a Final Fantasy XI/XII type thing. Sorta where if you attack, you stop action to target, then run in toward the enemy.

Also, I think I've seen some other system in one game (I think it was Legend of Philosopher's Stone) that basically retooled the side-scroller system outside of battle. If we could do something like this, we could probably make whichever things we wanted in a battle (since it technically isn't inside the battle screen). Like weather events or pictures popping up.

Okay, you've caught me. I've never played a single MMORPG ever. I actually have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to their usual mechanics. In fact, I have come to despise that post that I made because now that I think about it, I don't want to have everything go corny with hub town A and McGuffin item. I don't want layer 1 to seem like a mundane place of the norm because chances are that the player is going to stop right there and leave because they haven't been hooked by the plot yet.
Perhaps I'm just beating myself up over this small insignificant post that I made, but you've been the only one to call me out on it and find that something was up with it. And for that, I thank you.

But that brings us to another thing: should we try to make layer 1's mmorpg mechanics appeal more to singleplayer RPG players or should we try to cater it more towards the genre's usual crowd? And what effects will this have on the way that we (the players of this game) perceive layer 1 in relation to layer 2?

Well we have to keep some symbolic representation. This is a single player game, about a group of people, playing a multiplayer game, individually.
We don't have to represent it perfectly. We can have a standard battle system if we want.
The real place we have to try is in the attack, in the balancing. It can be turn taking so long as we have a 'tank', a 'buffer', a 'debuffer'. It's possible I got some terms wrong, but hey.

I think ABS is probably a bad idea, because then we'd have one player playing as four (or more) to do the above.

There is nothing to stop is thinking really out of the box though.

I think we should have the game halfway like an RPG and halfway like an MMO. Jiggly, I recommend this game. It has no download, and gives the general flavor of an MMO.

RPG: In order, then, to have a fast game plus, we need a way to speed up levelling. So yea, maybe they do start at the 1st level rather than the final dungeon (I like the idea of a flashback, as we can have it both ways, plus some quick storytelling), but because of various events/sidequests, they level extremely fast (level 1-80+ in about three hours).

RPG

• Central heroes
• Main coherent plot
• Developed characters
• Final bosses

MMO

• Sidequests with massive exp/equipment rewards
• Customization (MapleStory is a better one for this, they have character classes divided into warrior, mage, thief, and archer who then get to choose for instance whether the mage wants to be a fire mage, ice mage, or cleric, and later get advanced versions of these with better skills)
• Bonus events (stuff like Christmas parties with special areas, or certain times get some multiple of experience)
• Endless play (the "final" boss can be beaten over and over again, and you can keep playing)

If we want to make the experience quick but still provide some customization, we have the party start at like level ten. The hero has already chosen to be a warrior, the others are about to choose (the hero will probably give suggestions on what a good party needs, though). We have them choose their class, and everyone again at like level 50 (master classes). In the mean time, the hero (having played before and introducing the game to offline friends) is showing them all the tricks of fast leveling, such as sidequests and purchasing 3x experience cards (a party experience event that awards outside the battle by variable, then multiplies it, would be good, but it's important to have the variable revert to multiplier 0, if you run). MMOs do sometimes have plot events but they're set by character level. Anyway, the party gets to about the gates of the main villain's castle, oh sorry, server update (which is good because in the original game the pyromancer and the monk are sealed off as classes in development). Game probably crashes completely when they actually are fighting the final boss.

Here's my idea of what classes screen looks like. We'd need character appearance to be custom for each character appearance though (that is, a red hair girl is wearing the costume but has the red hair, likewise an opposite gender character is wearing the gender-appropriate outfit).



The basic classes (that's the top row) are the warrior, priest, wizard, and thief, followed (after the patch) by monk and pyromancer (greyed out at the time, and unchoosable). By the point that the monk and pyromancer join, the party has already chosen their classes and can't go back. The bottom row is whatever the chosen class branches into (they shouldn't show more than about three options).

For instance, the warrior can then become Commander, Paladin, or Knight.

Commander- Tactical abilities (like causing blind status using sand attacks, or poisoning the enemies. Also includes party buff abilities)
Paladin- Healing and holy attacks, along with better sword and shield skills.
Knight- Elemental sword attacks (like using a fire sword that turn)

The Priest then is divided into Shaman (healing plus natural), Oracle (healing plus curse), or Bishop (high level healing, buffs, and resurrection).
The Wizard is divided into Flame Mage (different from the pyromancer in that they like all the wizard types, learn from spell books rather than levels. They also have magical support abilities like Absorb Mana), Weather Mage (ice and thunder mage, also from books), or Archmage (can learn any books including some rare ones, but each new spell they learn takes one level away from them).
The Thief is divided into Archer (ranged physical attacks), Con Artist (can use thief like skills, in addition to the Steal ability of the thief. These also include disguise abilities which can be used outside of battle to enter secret areas normally closed off) , and Ninja (ranged melee attacks, elemental powers, and also has disguise. Versatile but not very strong).
The other two are... actually not very customizable (they're expansion classes), but are more powerful than the others, gaining skills by level at a fairly frequent rate in the case of the pyromancer, and in the case of the monk, gradually becoming much more powerful without weapons than with (due to altered unarmed attacks).

It sounds like you want the extra time simply to create more of an mmo feeling but if we were to destroy this layer quickly no-one would have time to pick flaws in it. I mean racing up 80 lvls for the sake of it? When they could just be started at some reasonably high level anyways. Adding fetch quests for no reason other than levels? When we could just move on with the plot. These work in mmos because you need to become familiar with the maps and because there isn't really an aim other than becoming stronger, but that is not the case here.

If someone wants to play a legit mmo they wont be playing our game. We just need it similar enough in looks and mechanics that it brings a smile of recognition to the players face, an "I see what they did there" now and then, but ultimately these are 'gimmicks of that reality' that the player is distracted by as we move towards the next layer and its own new set of reality bending rules/gimmicks. And lets not forget the next layer, you think people will be psyched that they spent the last several hours building that character just to have it destroyed? The in-game characters should feel that devastation, us as players should feel empathy at most.

As a side note: how about stat customization rather than, or in conjunction with, strict classes (possibly implied classes like high dex builds as thieves, high sta mixed with atk for knight, that sorta thing). Seems like a way to add more customization in less time.

Not for no reason. There could be hidden items and other rewards.

Alternatively, we could have them starting at about level forty, and have them already chosen their classes, and already know each other (old friends from the game). The second class change is at level 50, and the recommended (but not required) level is 80. The sidequests help superfast levelling here too, but you can probably class up just with pure grind at some of the medium level enemies to level 50.

We should make this a complete world, even if people don't intend to explore it. Because this is how most online games are, more world than you'd possibly use just for those 1% who do travel around.



If we had character customization after a certain level (10 for first, 50 for the second), you can assume that the characters starting at level 40 have already made their initial choice. You could then have a weighted choice for the two latecomers - one starts at level one, but insists upon being a monk whenever you choose something else, and the other has hacked a level 30 character right off the bat (due to stat builds mentioned above, this gets them past the heavy grind and for maximum stat customization) - to keep this strict class system for the early part, allowing only late game customization.



Also, it might be cool to devise a save script system, the characters might later be able to "import" their character class/abilities with the help of the programmers and some computer code. (Sorta a script that could make a save file that could then be imported to another engine when a similar script was called, giving the levels and classes to the new characters) This way you'd have a sense that the characters really are those they customized, and you wouldn't be all like "nooooo, my custom Dark Angel can never be used again." We should experiment with save scripts, and see if we can't get it to do something as a separate process from normal saves. Either that, or a "class download" event that lets them rechoose their classes, and customize again.

Or some sort of password that the player needs to write down that's basically two parts for each character with as many codes as there are characters in the original layer's party. Basically, strings of code separated by dashes like 0159-0f2e-06ff-(etcetera) These are names as in hero names so it would be 0763 (Commander = hex 7 for class, 99 = hex 63) for a level 99 Commander. Rare items aren't imported though. This is doable, but extraordinarily tedious. For the writer of the code, and the person involved probably would wanna haul around a code on a flash drive or something. You'd also have to rule out certain codes like characters starting at a level lower than their intended start point (40 for the initial four, 30 for the pyromancer since that one hacked, and 1 for the monk), and for characters having a class that's not their own (hence there are six such name codes instead of just one). That's only about 4x99 codes for each character, no big deal. Yea....

This sums up my feelings.

I want to focus on the fun aspects of a game, not the level building. I think level 40-50 ought to do it. Room to grow, but the focus won't be on levels. The focus will be on equipment, skills, battling.

And we should try and transfer layer 1 progress to layer 2

I reckon we should almost ignore the MMO idea, because it breaks the characterization, and we should just create suspension of disbelief by saying that these four people are engaging together in a 4-player party, turn-based system and whatnot. Everything is like a regular single-player RPG, except somehow they're all playing together. There's gotta be some congruity of style and battle systems throughout the layers, so this layer should introduce our Level 2 feel of battle within that. So what I'm basically saying, is let's kind of push aside this "MMO" thing and get to work on what actually happens within the dungeon

Hey guys sorry school and famliy has kept me away.

Please try to keep posts relevant to the thread and contributory, thanks- Kaust

I'm happy with this, but there should still be the cooperative battle system of MMOs (tanks, buffers, etc) even if it's turn taking.

Well as that seemingly killed the thread I vote nay!
Thing is, we can't just avoid things we can't settle on, at points we're just gna have to keep going round and round an idea 'til we reach a compromise or we clash it out. When I started this thread trying to make it 'mmoey' was the entire aim; as far as I'm concerned what goes on inside the castle (bar enemies, traps/puzzles, layouts, et ceteras) is story, which we have another thread for.
I guess what I mean is this thread should be for what Titan would call the 'hard' details that people can start working with. Deciding on how the first layer works as a game is pretty much key to designing everything else inside it.

(That said, the 'old school rpg' thing could work well considering this is a RRR game)

These seem to be the major disagreements, this is my vote.

Game type: Still make it an MMO
Game style: Don't focus on the MMO aspect, just interface, no actual multiplayer
Battle: Sideview battle system?
Game begins at: Game starts in a town or at the main dungeon (I'm kinda indifferent on this one)
Duration of Layer: Layer 1 only lasts enough time for the player to gain about 5 levels
Character Customization: Minimal and only at the beginning of the game

Are there any other things we need to agree on?

Mostly agree.

Game type: Still make it an MMO
Game style: Don't focus on the MMO aspect, just interface, no actual multiplayer. Party strategies are still a nice idea.
Battle: Sideview battle system, with possibly surrounded and pincer options in battle.
Game begins at: Game starts in town, wtih party talking about heading out to main dungeon. The boss in question may or may not be a big final boss, it might just be the goal of their current quest. (In that case, we can have the party be like level 30-35 at average, rather than 80+ for a smaller scale adventure)
Duration of Layer: Layer 1 only lasts enough time for the player to gain about 5 levels
Character Customization: Level 30 class up custom chars (I like class changing). Characters maybe start at level 25, and probably don't need to gain more than 5 levels (although they can if they go off the rails, either with sidequests or remote area training) to get past the major boss. Too much leveling and the players get really attached to the custom characters. Though there might be points where the characters can access them somehow, with the help of the programmers. Too minimal customization (like, just stats for instance), and it doesn't give a strong enough sense of attachment. Somewhere in between, a happy medium.

If this is agreed let's focus more on world-building. What sort of shops, houses, and people does this town have? What optional training areas are nearby (maybe some deserts or swamps)? What type of monsters are common to the area, and what puzzles are notable? Also, so puzzles, might be char-building puzzles (that is, they don't get solved by the player, so much as show the characters working together to give more of a sense of connection with the party).

Just a question: how long are we going to be spending in Layer 1? I had the notion that it was just a small intro, that we will be spending most of our time in Layer 2, where our main protagonists are. So like, a few short puzzles and minigames with our strong Layer 1 heroes, then everything goes black. We don't want to get *too* into the game and then it just cuts out on us.

I think it should just be a dungeon that we're in, some kind of cave with monsters and traps and ladders. There might be a traveling salesman in there selling potions and whatnot, people you have to save, but other than that it's just you, the puzzles, and a few monsters. But if it's a full-blown world that you can explore right off the bat at Layer 1... how will the player feel when all their stats are reset and they get their layer 2 n00b counterparts? I have a feeling that this should be very brief as to let players get into the "meat" of the game rather quickly (which is Layer 2, no doubt).

This is how I feel, it seems to be the best pace for the story, and well, I love our story, I want the focus to be on it.
Others may be excited by the prospect of making an mmo style game though and want to spend a little more time on it. I'm fine with that, this game isn't just for the players. And if we are going to be spending too much time on/in it, at least its going to be awesome ^^

I think we need to find a balance where the game isn't too long, but also isn't short enough where the surprise of it being a game doesn't hit people hard.
I think an open world would be too confusing and too distracting.
I say you really aren't able to decide where to go, we give the appearance of an open world, but the player only has the option of venturing to where the layer 2 players choose to go. So basically the town and then the dungeon.
Now I'm wondering if 5 layers is still too much. That's actually going to take a long time if they're already level 30-60

I imagine you mean levels.
We can balance it so 5 levels is as long as we want it to be. They won't question it too much... until it's too late

I think battles should be 4v1, like in some online games, where they fight a series of very powerful enemies. Thoughts?

I'm indifferent on the amount of enemies. The only thing with a single enemy is that it gets very boring and there is almost no strategy.

To the contrary, there is more strategy. Every enemy is a specific foe that must have a calculated defeat, rather than a spam of 'attacks'.