We do need some more hints that this is a game, but something like a chat option is too obvious.

All right, well here's a few other ways to imply its a game in form rather than in plot;
Inventories: these should become more restrictive as we move up the layers, think this was touched on before but here's my take: infinite> limited space (like Pokemon Red/Blue)>finally the addition of weight (like Baldur's Gate or Fallout 3)
Menu screens: doesn't pause the game because its online> pauses because its offline right? (I never understood what type of game layer2 represented and I kinda just assumed The Sims )>doesn't pause and probably shouldn't even have a menu screen (if possible) seeing as this is the closest to rl
Movement:I thought adding in more options of movement would be kinda like showing more dimensions, so the basic four way movement> adding in jump> jump and eight directions
Levelling:stat and skill customisation (this is essentially the biggest game of all the layers so players should have more control; however I know this is already disputed)>skill customization only- people can choose what they want to do, but are stuck with their natural attributes (not to say they dont improve statwise, just adhere to certain affinities)>people don't 'level' in reality so individual attributes should gain insignificant improvements over time and usage (for example; a particular stat or ability with a certain weapon)

And then other things like graphics, puzzles, items that would be in canon with each reality (for example; while swords exist in our reality most people would choose a gun over it as a means of protection, also I spose magic is a no-no in later layers).

Anyways, additions, alterations and dismissals to these are all welcome.

(I know this wasn't first layer specific but the general ideas thread is dead and we were just talking about this so...)

Ooh, that could be cool, but it does make players a bit stressed to not be able to pause their game, but I kinda like the idea. So maybe the menu is just a dropdown near the bottom of the screen, so it doesn't actually cover the screen and the player can still see if danger is approaching and exit out of the menu.
Layer 2 is basically the sims only more advanced, it's a replica of real life basically. So yeah, this one is able to save sounds good.
Layer 3 you're not able to save, I like that, since layer 3 isn't exactly that dangerous except for when the rogue program gets into the system. There should be a computer somewhere that allows you to "save data" or something.

Adding more directions to walk also means making more sprites, we could do that, I just don't see the need for that when the maps are generally going to be left right up down.

I'm not even sure what kind of battle system we have in layer 2, or even if there is one. I remember we were talking about layer 2 having maybe puzzle based battles.

For saving, why not have certain actions save the game?

In layer 1, perhaps a book of some kind, a way of recording progress.
In layer 2, sleeping. Or perhaps you talk to someone in your party and they say something along the lines of: "Something up?" "Yeah I'm just wondering if we're all caught up." and then the save menu opens.
In layer 3, you approach a computer and 'backup' your data if you're a programmer. If you're Johnny then... I have nothing.

If we're Johnny perhaps we implement autosave? Whenever you enter a new room it saves your location.

That could work, alternatively:
"So the doctors think you might have some memory loss, mind if I check what you remember?"
"-yes
-no"
yes opens the save windows
no returns a message
"There'll be time for that later."

Of course, the first time should be forced so that the player learns.

I'd like to make saving as fluid as possible, like there' a reason you're saving.
Anyway, this isn't first layer relevant.
Let's get back to the first layer. We mentioned a while back that information on Matryoshka has slipped into all the layers, should we have books mentioning him in the library?

During the conversation with Matryoshka (if there is one) we can mention that it tried to warn us.

We could have a wholly variable-based custom levelling system, or maybe an "AP system" where levelling improves mainly hp/mp, while abilities increase when you have enough points to buy ability-ups. All battles might give 1-5 AP, but you have to have AP equal to your current to add more (or something). Also, mebbe if you have a certain amount of stat (like Strength 15), you can gain a new skill.

Every level you get 3-5 attribute points and 1 ability point.
You can also get extra ability points through items, as well as weapons and armor that give attribute bonuses.
Ability points can be reset, but attribute points can't.

certain abilities can't be unlocked unless attributes are at a certain levels, other abilities require other abilities.
Certain weapons require certain abilities or certain attribute levels to wield, same goes for armor.

This sound good?

We could also do the AP thing. Once an ability is unlocked, it levels up via AP, but only if that ability is used in the battle.

Sounds kinda like Legacies of Dondoran (one of my favs) but I like that attribute part.

The latter one sounds vaguely like FF2J or Romance SaGa (at least one I've played). It's a bit tricky to implement (the biggest part is stuff like HP/MP and defense, since doing that straight involves damage calculation each battle) though.

Hmmmm, I guess this stuff is difficult to figure out until we start actually making it.
I also think if we make a system this complicated, we should use the same engine for layer 1 and layer 2, or make a code that can easily be translated from one engine to the other.

You probably have a better idea than me of what is possible to code, so I'll take your word on this.

The second code isn't that hard (you can have it just for one character, in which case it's alot easier than trying to do for two games). The first requires basically making a custom menu that calls itself whenever you level, and the second is tricky but not impossible.

Both of them, it's helpful to have a outside battle rewards screen. This is pretty much what it boils down to anyway, since you also talked about party splitting.

So I think I've got a pretty solid design for the library puzzle. I don't have a way to get a picture on yet, but here's the basic layout.
So there are eight rooms



E: The entrance to the library. This has about six rows of bookshelves. The final row has a gap leading to a wall, which actually is part of the cylendar bookcase in the middle. There is a blue book in one of the shelves, it will stand out. The blue book turns the bookcase 45 degrees clockwise. There is a door to the study, but it is initially locked.
R: This is just a basic room, it has more bookshelves, however these books are more detailed and descriptive. (More about the dark past of Rasuel). There is a red book in the bookshelf that turns the cylendar bookcase 90 degrees clockwise.
O: The cylendar bookcase. The lines represent doorways. The way it is facing now is how it should look once the blue book has been activated, so it has been turned 45 degrees.
T: This is the storage room, it is dark in here so a light source is needed. Once lit you can see a couple boxes and such, also a dinky little bookshelf in the corner. This shelf needs to be dusted to reveal a green book. This green book rotates the cylendar bookcase 180 degrees counterclockwise.
S: This is the study, it connect to R via a locked door. There's a desk and some planning stuff, as well as a large metal door in the upper right corner. This door leads to a sort of catwalk, looking over the main hallway (H). There is a switch which unlocks half of the door. The other half needs to be unlocked from another switch.
H: This is the main hallway leading to the bedchambers (or whatever is after the library). It has a double locked door at the front, two switches have to be activated in order to enter the room.
M: This is the machine room. It consists of a small hallway with a ladder leading up to a large (about 9x9) catwalk with another switch. This is how you fully unlock the door.

Now all I have to figure out is a good way to make this challenging, right now it's too easy, you can do it in about 3 steps.

I was under the impression that it was multiple bookshelves that had to be turned to form bridges, and things move to create steps/ladders. With a single bookshelf once you've got it straight, the puzle is done. This is more of a 3D puzzle from my understanding, not multiple side-rooms.

There should be some trigger books though, to activate ladders and such for reaching new sections or something.

Oh, well if we go with that idea then I'm kinda at a loss for ideas.

This is what I thought you guys were saying.



Some sort of vertical shaft with first maybe a simple puzzle involving book shelving, then the whole rotation puzzle, and finally maybe using books as bridges by rotating or pushing them.

Oh, this is a tower? I had thought that the only upward movement would be the optional balcony.

I was thinking this dungeon should only have 2 puzzles, otherwise it would become repetative and frustrating.

I still kinda like my rotation puzzle design, but if everyone is against that we could do something else. The thing is, the puzzle I designed isn't finished, it's really easy right now, and it will be much more difficult and would require more thought to solve, that's just a rough design.

The balcony is presumably downstairs from the attic. Room two has a door that opens when the puzzle is unlocked, that heads downstairs. There should also be some sort of switch to a retractable ladder, on one of the balconies (so monsters can't get up, but once you've fought them, you can get down).

Or let's consider merging floor one and two (floor one, you basically rotate books so you can climb a stack then you climb one of the shelves to a high ladder, leading to floor 3... ummm, floor 2), and the balcony is essentially on the second floor.

I think what I'm getting at with all this confused rambling is a library with a hidden switch among the books that unlocks the first ladder (puzzle 0) where then you use the bookshelves as ladders and bridges by moving/rotating them as a 3D puzzle (puzzle 1), and at the top you have that teamwork door puzzle (puzzle 2). Aside from that, not really sure how tall this shaft is, but it should be enough so people aren't like "I can just walk onto the balcony, easy."

What I was envisioning was something more like this (the whole knocking stuff over and using it as tools).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuDAiQGSrTE

Okay, so I think we have a decent grasp on how this puzzle is going to look.

Have we discussed what the 'alternate' path contains? The one that's very difficult but doesn't involve any puzzles.

Basically this.

It's a large room with a ton of enemies, if you can get past all of them you'll have bypassed a large part of the game, but perhaps you get a different type of boss fight.

So random encounters, or a set number of battles?

Ooh. A set number of enemies. Large enemies that patrol the room and such.

great.
What we really want is to make sure you can't get from one side to the other without fighting an enemy. It has to be a challenge that pushes the limits of the battle system.
Perhaps we could string it all into one battle, than way there's no experience until the end, and no chance to heal, just one relentless battle.

Oh perhaps, but we should also give them the option to escape the room if they've walked in by accident.

How would we make it all string together though?

Yea that was more or less my thought. Quick question, is the boss sitting on like a throne in that room? Or do you have to get through that room, and the upper path has some side door to the next room that passes all that? That is, do we have something more like this, where enemies can't directly get to you while you're on the bridge (picture 1), or more a separate room deal (like picture 2)?





You could do rapid succession battles. That is, on an event if you have this code:

Encounter: Slimex3
Encounter: Soldierx2
Encounter: Behemothx10

After you kill the slime, it does the next battle with no save or fleeing in between. That or we could just have hordes of advancing enemy sprites.

-------------------------------

If we do the chained battles, we should use the following events.

Parallel Process, Above, MonsterHordes is ON (turned on if you enter downstairs, turned off if exiting the room)
Variable, Random (1-whatever)*
Wait 0.1
End Event

*(Alternatively, you can have a counter system with each step taken somehow)
--> If Key Pressed is Up/Down/Left/Right
--> +1 variable

Parallel Process, Above, If variable is (whatever the max number was)
Wait 0.1
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter:
Encounter: (etc)
Wait 0.1
Erase Event/reset variable to 0

I was at first thinking he would be sitting in the throne room, but then I kinda thought maybe that'd be too...obvious. But maybe if we make it really hard.

Also, I hate chain battles, I hate anything that alters the battle, because when you're in a battle sequence, you are all but blind to anything else happening in the world. It will feel hopeless if we don't give the player some sort of way to know where they are in the whole mess.

an opening means the player can exploit it though.

isn't there a way to reveal enemies during a battle and have more come in?
If we have the characters talk about their options pre-fight, and use a save point, then I'm pretty sure all our players will get the idea.
Then we have the battle, occasionally with shouted commands:
player health below x
-character y alive
--message: Y, heal!

Then as each wave of enemies is defeated, there could be a brief respite while still on the battle screen.
Message: "Okay, lick your wounds, get ready."
-small health increase/statuses removed-
Message: "Here they come!"
-more enemies appear-

So it's one long extensive battle. We never leave the screen. Maybe after three rounds the player is offered the ability to retreat.
Message: "We can't hold them off, we've got to back down!"
choice:
-Never!
-Retreat!


If anyone's played FFVII (who am I kidding, most of us have I'm sure) I'm basically describing the arena battles, but with dialogue.

Oh okay, that sounds better. And I actually haven't played FFVII ;_; don't judge me.

But yeah, I think we've got this room set now.
I think it's appearance should still show a ton of enemies in the room. You should be able to dodge a few of them until one of them hits you and initiates the battle sequence (which triggers the whole chain)

Okay, but if you reach a certain point then the battle should begin regardless.

And the arena battles looks like this in FFVII http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifzVjY3I4C0
Jump to about 2.20 to see the relevant bit.

Yea... that doesn't really work. Exiting out of battles quickly and re-entering works, reviving or transforming works, but making more troops appear, not so much. What you end up having is something more like FF6, where maybe one or two groups of hidden enemies can appear, but no more than 8 or so enemies total, then you need a new battle (as shown in the Esper battles where they'd tend to have short cutscenes between floods of enemies) or to do something creative. You'd need to script to get it to behave differently, and this would require really knowing what you're doing or it might crash the battle system.

Eight enemies would be fine.
That's four battles with two enemies, or two battles with three enemies and one battle with two enemies.
Then we can take a quick respite, where the group discusses whether they should retreat or not.
Then you have a eight more enemies and then you're done.

Of course, we want these enemies to be so tough that if you do anything wrong, then you'll suffer damage that will slow you down for all the battles. If you manage to take the enemy down in the most efficient way, then the slight healing after each battle will recoup your losses. If you're less than efficient, then you'll be going into each fight with slightly less health.
This accumulates until you're either dead by the middle point, or just barely alive.
If they go for this path, we must demand perfection of them.

Perhaps, just maybe, if the player can complete every single obstacle in the game with absolute perfection, we can award them with something, but it's mostly for bragging rights.
Plenty of people hack games so they can fight the final boss at level 8. They then film it, put it online, and boast that they don't need level to win the game, THEY are just so damn good they could do it from the start.
Other people like to grind in games so much that it defeats the purpose of the plot. To use FFVII again, there is an enemy called the Midgar Zolem who you're not supposed to defeat. Once you get around it, the big bad guy of the game kills it, proving how tough he is. My brother is especially fond of training his characters until he can kill the Zolem in one hit, and then laughing as the heroes find the Zolem dead.
What I'm trying to say is, people like a challenge.

But yeah. a total of 16 enemies should be enough for this battle marathon, we just make the enemies super hard.

Make it an even 25 (24, and the last enemy, upon dying, morphs into a miniboss). Two waves, even of tough enemies, the average person isn't two upset over. But three waves of heavy hitters? Well...

Make it 2 waves back to back (no healing between the first two, minor heal after), to wear the characters down. The third is to test endurance, and the boss is to sort out the pros. If you lose to the 3rd wave rather than the second or first, there's a nonstandard loss, where the party says something like "they just keep coming" and there's a leaving the room cutscene where they dodge around enemies blocking the way out.

We should have actual enemy charsets closing in rather than just a sudden battle, for more of a dramatic effect.

So we'll have a series of enemies, then we'll cut back to the map and show more enemies approaching, then another series, then another approach, then another series and a boss?
Sounds good to me.

Maybe if there's a second series of enemies we should give the player a chance to escape then. ANd lets make sure they're stronger enemies so the player doesn't just feel that it's been reset.

Of course. My idea for the battle system is that the enemy will try to anticipate your next move, so battles are about tricking and deceiving your opponent. Harder enemies just have to be harder to trick.

If we want something like this, we should probably have the party and monsters with equal agility and no way to adjust (haste yes, but not agility equips or seeds) so that it's more a turn-based thing. We'd probably be lucky just to get the enemy to try to counter, prediction is a losing business since people think differently. For instance, fire spells might all inflict burn status, ice does slow freeze, thunder does shock. None of these outright disable action, so the enemy responds either with trying to dispel the status or by buffing their fire/ice/thunder defense in preparation for coming attacks when afflicted by status.

well, however we do it, I'd like the battles to feel thought out.
Too many games are just about spamming your best attack, or picking the right move. I want a system where you feel like you're outsmarting enemies, and where it seems like they're outsmarting you.

Some enemies are capable of auto-counters.
If you charge up a powerful attack, they will automatically begin defending. If you try to make them weak to fire, they'll make themselves strong against fire, but not every time.
It's about calling bluffs, anticipation. I sometimes play poker, and the appeal of the game is in trying to think what your opponents are trying to make you do. Eventually it's not even about the cards (or the attacks) it's about what card they're trying to make you think they have.
Maybe an enemy when it's low on health will 'charge up' for a big attack, which means you'll probably start casting defensive attacks, but then the enemy heals itself instead, and you have to spend your next turn coming out of defense.
The enemy just tricked you.

Although I'd like a firm strategy, I'd like to shy away from the whole anticipation thing.

I once played this game called DBZ: Super Gokuden 2. Although I like the whole thing where stuff is turn-based this basically ground down to a giant game of rock paper scissors (fine for elemental strengths and weaknesses, not so much for battle order). Put me to sleep.

To keep the game fun to play, not EVERY common enemy should be a strategic master. The further along ones definitely, but there should be several types of enemy:

1. Mook: fairly easy to kill, even with a basic attack strategy, usually in swarms of 5-8 at once. Forces you to either take a bunch of small hits or use a nuke style magic attack, wearing down either hp or mp
2. Heavy Hitter: Forces you to block/heal/ and end the battle quickly. High attack, but low hp and def.
3. Tank: a heavy hitter, but with high def and hp. Can buff and/or heal themselves, usually. This and the heavy hitter type will probably be our creatures. The key here, is that don't counter everything you do or always use the right strategy, but in key points they buff themselves. For instance, we needn't (and in fact shouldn't) have them buff versus fire when you use fire. Instead, they should buff to compensate their pre-existing weaknesses, usually on the first round, and then again after about 5 or 10 turns. Healing should be when at 30% remaining hp or something.
4. Elementals: Uses a type of magic, weak to another.
5. Magician: Uses multiple types of magic. Usually resistant/immune to magic, vulnerable to physical attacks/skills. More advanced ones will be able to use buffs/debuffs and even healing.
6. Mastermind: This type of enemy actually adapts around your actions, like mentioned above. It changes weaknesses, casts all manner of buffs, and can cast and attack equally well. This is a boss or a tough enemy. Despite all this, the mastermind usually has some weakness it CAN'T prepare for, something it overlooked. A warmage for instance, might be immune to all magic that it thinks you'll cast (and swap immunities), such as light, fire, ice, thunder, but have not realized one of your party members is actually proficient in darkness magic. If it's a boss, it might adjust at the last second, throwing all of its defense into darkness immunity, at the expense of everything else.
8. Ooze/Ghost: Completely avoids physical attacks. Vulnerable to magic. These might have specific weaknesses, and will zap you with sludge, dirt, or slime that lowers your immunity to other magic.
7. Flying: Partially or completely avoids physical attacks. Might overlap with the breakable armor (can be knocked out of the sky) or with the ghost strategy.
8. Breakable Armor: The enemy is completely immune to all but one approach. Damaging it shifts its weaknesses to normal. Alternatively, this is a two (or in rare cases, three) step process. For instance, a boss in Mana Khemia is made from glass, and has to be heated, then cooled to shatter its armor.
9. Magical Beast: A combination of some of the worst traits of the mastermind, and the tank. Loads of hp, heavy hitting in magic/attack, possibly the ability to reflect and/or regen. Possibly involves some odd/complicated strategy to put it down for good. It's usually not about your damage, since these types are often susceptible to poison or mana drain, and your damage does little good unless you're like level 99. (Atma weapon of FF3, and Sanctuary Keeper of FFX are prime examples)
10. Leader: Summons monsters. These can be among any of the above types. The leader is usually designed to outlast the enemies slain or is outright immune to damage so long as there are other enemies. These battles usually end with the leader still alive (they flee when all enemies are done), or with the character getting killed off once enemies are no longer summoned.
11. Counterspell: Not offensively strong. Instead, they get rid of buffs on the party, and get rid of bad status effects of their allies. Basically, they slow you down by forcing you to recast. Usually combo'd with a heavy hitter or two.
12. Evolving Enemy: Changes form and strategy when defeated or close to death. Almost always a boss. This is usually in fact a final boss, because it allows the boss to have more than one of these.

So you see, an enemy that buffs around everything is only one strategy, and it's a mistake to play all enemies this way. I do think we should have turn-based system tho.

For this area, I see heavy hitters for the first wave. I see tanks and flying for the second wave. The boss is a mastermind and leader, and the others are oozes/ghosts, elementals, heavy magicians (pairs of each), and finally a magical beast. Once all of these are killed off, the leader becomes weak to attack, but still able to use a bunch of buffs to tweak its weaknesses in anticipation or response to yours.

Well of course we'll need variations of enemies, but I don't want to be cliche.
I don't want people to load up the game and know how to kill all of our enemies because they've already killed them in a thousand games. I want to make the battles more interactive than that.

You're fighting a fire elemental.
You cast an ice attack.
Massive damage.
It retaliates by 'warming up' which does damage to your whole party and raises its own defenses.
It uses a lot of its MP to do this though.

Even Mooks should behave like real animals.
If they're a pack animal, then they should fight like a pack.
Once one is weakened, it will try to defend itself, and others will defend it. This way you have to kill them all at once, or too quick for them to defend.

Heavy Hitters should target your strongest characters, as they pose the greatest threat.

Tanks have higher HP and defense, so they target your weakest characters, or whichever character was most recently attacked. They're more tactical. They wouldn't anticipate your next attack, but they would plan their own attacks.

Magician's aren't immune to magic, they just know how to work it. If you cast an elemental spell, then they'll protect themselves. if you try to debuff them, they'll counter debuff. They probably have a system where they can absorb some magic from your attacks, and use it themselves.

Masterminds should be individually tailored. Is the enemy paranoid? Then they might reverse all of your attacks. Is the enemy ruthless? They'll probably ignore your attacks and focus on hurting you as much as possible. Tactical? they'll reverse some of your attacks, but not all. They might even mimic your attacks. If they think you're going to make a big attacks, they'll order a mook to defend them.


Basically, let's imagine these fights actually happening. How do the enemies behave? How do our heroes behave? Do the enemies just relentlessly jump onto our heroes swords, or do they look out for each other?

Wizard Battles are done pretty damn well in films. It's not about hitting your opponent, it's about NOT getting hit BY your opponent. You don't just hit them, you stop them from hitting you. And what does Voldemort do when he sees Dumbledore protecting Harry? He goes after Harry. Because if Harry dies, then Dumbledore loses his will to fight.
Or take the famous Merlin battle where Merlin transforms himself into a germ to kill his opponent (I forget her name, Margeroth or something).
A Wizard battle is about one-upping your opponent.
Outsmarting them.

Of course, there's only so much we can do, but we should at least try to emulate that. Enemies that aren't hard to kill, enemies that are hard to hit.

I like this. Have variations, but a heavier degree of strategy.

This is why I can't stop playing FFX, each type has a certain character that can best beat them, and you have to have certain workarounds if you're the wrong character. And boss battles are fun, rather than just being a crazy berserk enemy that heavy hits.

Speaking of fun boss battles, if we could script a counterspell system, something like counters can be cast while a character/enemy is "charging" for an offensive spell. And the magician can do the same. (I have a feeling this would screw with the pacing of the game if done across the board, but it would be great for a boss). Counters fall into three categories: failed (countering thunder with water, fire with ice, higher level with lower level, totally wrong spell, usually something) deal damage to the person trying to counter), dispelling (defensive earth spells to most spells besides water, same spell, holy and dark) either deals no damage to either or minor damage, and successful (basically the same as failed but on the opponent's side) which deals huge damage on the opponent's side.

Ummm... not sure if it should about be trying to guess the spell, or actually having it open and needing to counter it.

If we could work in a counter spell system that would be great.
I imagine it would be hard to script, as it would require stopping an attack before it happens.

Maybe most spells activate as normal, but if a mage casts a spell on another mage then there's a chance a side-battle of some kind could occur. Probably something decided by common events and variables.
During this side battle, any of those scenarios you described could occur. The winner will be decided by the choices, the damage will be decided by who is the winner, and what magic attack and magic defense each side has.

So a steam-splosion might damage both sides, but the weaker mage will take a lot more damage.

I imagine some sort of menu interface, where it's like:

Random number Is Greater than 25 of 30

"The other wizard is casting Fireball."

Else

"The other wizard is casting a spell."

If you know the spell, it's about planning an appropriate counterattack, which is still difficult. If you don't you've gotta guess and hope for dumb luck.I'm not sure we should dictate weaker/stronger mages. It should be about who is craftier.

The spell Counter should be a defensive spell, and cause this, if the character is a target. So normally, this only pops up, if you call it up, except for that one boss.

We could do checks.

The wizard with the highest speed (however we measure that) gets to choose whether to attack or defend.
Then whichever wizard is attacking selects a spell, the other wizard has a % chance of seeing which spell is being selected based on the other wizards intelligence and their own intelligence.
Then the two spells fire, and an event processes the attack to decide the result.
If the two spells have no reaction, then both parties take small damage (based on their magic attack and defense)
If the two spells react, then a new spell occurs (steam explosion, for example) which deals massive damage to the wizard attacking wizard UNLESS their magic attack is significantly larger than the attacking wizard.
If the two spells are the same, the defending wizard takes a large amount of damage, unless their magic attack is significantly larger than the other wizard.
If the defending wizard uses a defensive spell then they will take no or little damage so long as the defensive spell reacts with the attacking spell.

Complicated, but I can imagine it being interesting in action.

Okay, we have our layer 1 plot outlined, we're designing the battle system, and the characters are ready.
Lets make maps.

I believe the starting town/village is at the bottom of a chasm, so I had something like this in mind:


It's a very rough image, basically you have your original settlement in the middle, and then they've cut into the stone over the years and spiraled out, carving additional stone buildings out of the rock as they went. The real thing would be a lot bigger than this, of course, and probably more square (because we're working with RM here and RM hates circular structures). There are also ladders at certain points for easy access up and down the structure. The middle would have to be a lot larger to accommodate crops and possibly animal farming. They would also need a source of water (a cave with a stream? A waterfall? Both?) or perhaps it rains almost all the time...

anyway, if we can add to this, or change parts of it, then we can work towards making some better concept designs, then we can work on mapping.

I like it. We have an artist that can do complex parallax tiling? I can (sort of) do it, but I'm no artist (i'd have to use predrawn images, being more of a programmer).

Here's a slightly more colored in mock-up.
Instead of all the ladders being aligned, I placed them in areas that would be convenient for those in the hard-to-reach areas. Also, the tower features a bridge that leads to the upper level.

Notice that there's also wall scrawlings which range from epic stories to love notes to immature scribbles. Also, there's a couple openings that could potentially lead to caves and/or tunnels, some of which probably lead down to a water source.

And I'm kinda confused by the term "Complex parallax tiling". Is it just a multi-layered parallax background or am I misinterpreting?

I think bulma is referring to passibility of tiles (as well as layers).

I like the new mockup, it's more like what I had in mind. Of course, the real thing will need to be much bigger (mostly for farming/housing reasons).
I imagine the middle would be mostly infrastructure and farming, with one or two houses, and then more housing, shops, etc built into the walls and on the higher levels. If there are streams in the caves there could also be fishing.
I like how this is shaping up. What else might we find here?

I mean like this (Sunset over Indahl). As you climb, the perspective may change, and certain things (like bridges and overhangs) may have multiple layers, where you can be under or over the bridge.

Simple parallax tiling would be just walking on the tiles, complex tiling is the actual multiple layers (also mentioned in that dungeon library) and changing perspective.

How deep is this trench? Because if it's super deep then the sun wouldn't reach it most parts of the day.

So seeing as this is an MMO, the tower in the center would probably be a reference point for various player activities, so it's probably going to be very full.

What is this town called again?

Can't remember the name, but it took them at least a generation to dig their way out, so it's pretty deep, but I imagine it's large enough that light still gets in. Like, the hypotenuse of the edge of the inner inner to the top of the outer spiral is roughly equal to the radius of the inner most circle.
Of course, this is subject to artistic interpretation.

I'm okay with perspective changes, they shouldn't be too difficult depending on how they're done and what can be done with parallax mapping. I don't think we should overdo the map though, it is a one time thing.

Well, we can re-use the layering code for the library. But yea.