The closest thing we have to a plot synopsis can be found here: http://www.rpgrevolution.com/forums/index....st&p=557072
but there is still a lot of work to do.

Mainly, we need to work out some characters. Who are they and, more importantly, how do they behave/develop?

We have a few character outlines:
-The 'main' protagonist. The first one to log off the game/one who returns to his original body in layer 3
-The fighter. One of the two members of the group who does not own the game. He is an adept martial artist of some kind and spends his introduction robbing a warehouse for a copy of the game and then saving the 'main' protagonist from a group of monsters.
-The fighter's accomplice. An unwitting ally. Also doesn't have the game.
-The programmer that shoots the Rogue Program
-The programmer that contacts Matryoska (spell fail) might be the same programmer as above
-The Rogue Program (quite developed, but still a little weak in characterization)

We need to develop these, and make some more, then develop them as characters. I'd rather not have us submitting characters, but trying to work out how these people should act according to their situation.
Let's get these characters worked out, nice and logical like. Also, any additional plot points. We gotta work them out too.

We're kind of slowing down here, let's not have that.

I'd like to take a crack at the fighter's partner in crime. *slammed with a bo staff for lame pun*
So, this kid, I'm thinking, could be a pyro? As in, he would use a lighter to burn things often or something. I'm thinking that he probably met the fighter one day when he was getting beat up by some bullies in an alley or something and the fighter totally kicked their butts for him. And then later it would turn out that pyro kid sort of deserved the pummeling because he ____(insert some childish reason here)?
But of course, he needs more than just an affinity for burning stuff. Perhaps he could also be a closet bookworm who's totally into all the classics?
At home, I see him mostly watched by his father while his mom is busy pursuing her career in marketing. Most likely he hasn't really gotten into the "looking for a girlfriend" stage quite yet. He'd probably have to be somewhat reliable for the fighter to trust him in their warehouse episode.

Is this the sort of stuff that we should be working towards developing?

Let's see...

There should also be:

- Several programmers trying to help out the heroes (layer 3)
- Extras: Friends and teachers (layer 2), NPC characters (layer 1), extra programmers (layer 3)
- Other party members (layer 1):

Since the main protagonist is leader, it's probably either a straight warrior or a warrior-mage type (hexblade/ druid/ red mage/ paladin/ ranger). Straight wizard types are seldom rpg leaders because they fall too easily, disrupting morale.

A simple party has warrior, healer, wizard, and thief. A more complicated party might have up to 7+ people, and anything from basic classes like thief and cleric to really weird ones like geomancer or a time wizard. Now a balanced party has about even offensive melee, and support classes, so let's say...

(Main Party)
Leader (whatever class we decide, using the notes above, probably a fighter though)
Priest (healing, buffs, and anti-evil)
Wizard (offensive magic)
Thief (multi-hit/steal)
(Backup)
Geomancer (terrain magic, some sorta special system)
Druid (hybrid)/Chronomancer (effect)/Witch (debuff)
Guardian (Uses a shield as a weapon and emphasizes defense skills)
(Haven't Got Game Yet)
Black Belt (not yet joined, multi-hit and can deal damage unarmed)
Other (not yet joined, maybe a pyro wizard?)

We'd need a fairly effective party change system (VX Ace has a very easy one to use), since this game will have a HUGE number of party members.

Also, who's to say the martial artist need be a guy? Maybe it's a tough gal, with the partner along for the ride (sort of, pardon the reference, a Kim Possible dynamic).

It most certainly is.

I like the idea of him being a bit of a pyromaniac, maybe even a rather serious one. It'll help when they set up a campfire later...
This is a good moment to establish flaws as well. The pyro guy could have brought the fight on themselves, but that doesn't really mean it has to be bullying. I can think of a few situations where the Pyro is in a moral grey area.
We'll work that out later.
So the fighter comes to their rescue. It's not just a 'I'll help that person' reaction. The fighter actually wants to try out their fighting skills, and only sides with the Pyro so they can get more action in the fight. They're not a bad person, just likes to practice their skills. This is one of the reasons they (I'm trying to be gender neutral) break into the warehouse later. The fighter wants to practice sneaking around.
So the Fighter is morally grey. They rush into trouble without thinking, and only after do they ask whether they're on the right side. This is something they can work on.
The Pyro, on the other hand, has a habit of bringing trouble on himself. Trouble which he's not too good at fending off. The Pyro has to learn to make decisions for themselves, but for the right reasons. Picking their battles.


This all seems about right, not sure what to make of it yet, but we can apply it as we go.

I kind of like the idea of making the fighter a bruiser girl. It could add a nice dichotomy between her and the Pyro.
On the one hand, the Pyro is infatuated with her because she saved his ass. On the other hand, the Pyro feels kind of emasculated by her because she could quite easily kick his ass.
This kind of explains why he's an unwitting accomplice. He tags along with the fighter because he wants to prove himself, in a manner of speaking.

We should be careful not to make the Pyro too timid, or to make the Fighter too heroic. At the end of the day they are a pyromaniac and a girl who likes to beat people up. They've both got a lot to learn, and have their own strengths and weaknesses in their own way.

Sounds fun.

What about the main/backup party? I just sorta hashed those together on the fly. It could be vastly different, like Exorcist instead of Priest (no healing spells), Oracle instead of Wizard (yin/yang magic), or other stuff.

1)The game opens as an mmo, so what is one major aspect that people love about mmos? (just in case you don't play them I'll answer myself) its the character customization, they tend to give players much greater control over how a character is being 'built' than console games. If its important that the layer2 player already has a character then its too late for this idea (I actually prefer it like this, better stories open by 'dropping in' on the protagonist, otherwise its like the guy had no existence prior to the events we play through), but if not then it would give us a good place to stick in any possible tutorials on battle systems or whatever since that's when tutorials'd be found in a conventional game.

2)...Where'd this come from?

That is a good idea, but it might not be realistic. For example, in an MMO, there are hundreds/thousands of players in a world at once, so how will we simulate that in the game? Another thing is that the player will control the four characters as a party, which is unlike an MMO where the players are individually controlled and can go their separate ways. Also, an MMO is a (slightly) impersonal experience, whereas these four are fighting as a team through a dungeon that has a storyline. MMOs lack this. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but what I am saying is that we have to be careful not to provoke disbelief.

I prefer to think of it as a LAN RPG, where they're all playing in the same room, co-operatively slaying monsters. However, this brings up the impossible nature of an "update" to a LAN game. So if we go with this option, then we have to find another reason why it crashes, perhaps because of a glitch in the game or something. That's just my opinion.

Well, what if it works like the way online multiplayer does in minecraft? Those only let a limited amount of players on and theoretically there could be a boot out for server updates and such. That way we don't have to put 100 crazy running noobs in the background (lower it to about 2-5) but we can still have the story-required downtime.

This is why I think we stick to a single quest. The quests in this game are closed entry, so each party plays a separate version, but the game as a whole is online. When doing puzzles the players are all separate, and when fighting the enemies, the battle system is just a way to represent them all battling away.
Much like in a real fantasy game the fighters aren't taking turns, they aren't here either, that's just a stylistic representation we're doing.

1) Heyyy, that reminded me. There was some VX dungeon crawler game that had like thirty or so classes. I think it was this one. If we can do this sorta system for like all the secondary characters (we can decide the leader's class personally) we'd have that sort of MMO feel.

2) I'm just saying. I tested VX Ace out, and I had like nine people in a party. It had a built in Formation function that left me swap out party order, and the people outside didn't gain exp (unless you enable it, in System). This sorta is like some MMOs where you have a bunch of Friends, but only like 6 people or some number could actually be in the party at one time.

You ever play the Dot Hack games? The whole thing about simulating independent characters is there. There are times when certain party members are not available for recruitment, because they're offline. Also, you have a bunch of roaming extra characters in towns and stuff. Some might be in dungeons too, and join you if you make friends with them. Or they might brush you off and go their own way.

A line randomizer might be a good code, since these extras saying the same thing every time would be bad. (Ewww, the thread responses sorta stalled)

Ok, first of all, a question.
I read the plot, but didn' understood if programmers are playable in battle.
If so, their skills could be set according to their roles.

Example: one of the programmers could change enemies source code, shifting its form to something weaker (obviously, with a certain success rate) or stop the programs being updated / refreshed for some time (i.e. stop,slow), something like this.

I don't know why, but while reading the plot, I imagined the programmer who shots the Rogue Program in his "human version" as a quite nervous, fearful guy who often babbles and sweats profusely. I imagined he accepted to shot the man (in order to try their new "revival" features), because he sees the program itself as a world in which he can make the rules and give a different image of himself, a world he can modify at his will, while in his true life he can't do anything similar. Shooting a person without being pursued by law, without actually killing nobody... well, this should make him feel like a sort of God, in contrast with his coward and troubled personality...

Well, this is my opinion on that.

Jens

I had a similar thought when I wrote that, so I think we can work with that.

As for the programmers, they don't directly interact with any enemies (except possibly security systems on layer 3) but they do aid the players. I'm not sure how we can represent this in battle, but it seems like less of a plot point and more of a gameplay issue.

Any programmer I made based on myself makes stuff called Incomplete Code (I'm always doing this, fiddling around with code, making new stuff instead of finishing the games I work on). Basically monster summons that sorta fragment out, and magic spells with a high fizzle chance.

I'm thinking if they "battle" it's sorta battle screen versus a keycode console. The console takes no damage from physical attacks, but they have a special command called Hack or Type or Patch whatever that lets the console get bypassed by enemy defeat (or End Battle). Or maybe it's based on a number input that has to be pushed. In fact, you could have some that respond to hacking, and some need a special code (since they're double or triple protected vs hacking), and some have incomplete or buggy programs and therefore need a patch rather than a hack. The guy with the Type command should probably have a list of some sort they can reference. This is not counting a second skill Program which does stuff like delay codes. 2k3 can do this, since it has custom commands linked to battle. Dunno about XP or VX though.

For programmer's actions in battle, I was thinking that a layer 2 character would have to do something specific to get the layer 3 programmer of their choice to help them slightly. After the layer 2 character does their attention-grabbing action, they can yell out what they want a specific programmer to do (example: Shelly, can make flowers grow on their heads please?).
It would take a couple of turns to activate the mod and sometimes the requested programmer won't be around at the time or they simply won't want to do something stupid like make flowers grow on the monsters' heads or something. Also, sometimes a mod will fail and give the opposite result. Also, a single programmer can only be called upon once per battle and their expertise can only be used if the current characters know about them at that particular part of the story.
Another thing that would happen is that something would eventually undo the mods after a couple of turns of being active. (we would need some in-game reasons for the mods wearing off.)

Now for plot stuff that could go with this system, one of the layer 2 characters eventually would meet an avatar of a layer 3 character that would be willing to help them out and then he give that character a phone number to call him in a pinch. For a while, this layer 2 guy is just fine and dandy, until when the layer 1 monsters start showing up. The first time that he has to battle a layer 1 monster in his layer 2 form, he is nearly wiped out until he calls the phone number. Then suddenly, the monster's head size doubles and it is immobilized! For a while layer 2 guy thinks that the phone number is magic, do to the sparkly effects, but it is later revealed that the phone number is the number to the layer 3 guy's cell phone.
Before then, he might meet a couple other willing avatars of the layer 3 programmers and receive their phone numbers, but their numbers would each only do one specific thing until the plot twist happens. When it does, he'll then be able to choose from a couple different mods from each programmer's number instead of only having one.

Each time a programmer applies a mod, their modding skill goes up by a certain amount, depending on the complexity of the mod and how many times they've done that particular mod before. When they gain more skill, they'll be able to code old mods faster and occasionally come up with new ones.
Sometimes due to certain events that may radically change the codebase of certain things in layer 2, the speed to apply a mod will be reset back to default, not affecting the availability of newly added mods. Also, certain monsters might have more anti-mod encryption than others, which would slow down the speed of mod application as well.

Hopefully there's enough plot hidden away in this chunk of gameplay mechanics to rationalize it being in the plot thread.

I thnk in battle each programer sponsor a hero and that hero could use an abillty based on that type of programmer, so like
let's say Sally is sponsoring,or using, Jiggly then if the player inputs a command or a gauge called a synchronize gauge,or a Sync Gauge,
fill up then the programmer has full control over the hero, but Sally's programmer profession is Debug. She could use Jiggly to Debug, or buff
the characters, which could also mean that Jiggly can now debuff the enemis as well whatever works for you guys.

Also, is the wizard slot taken up by anyone? If not then my character Luxis de Oswell be in that slot?

Isn't that already what's happening on the layer 1 to layer 2 switch? We don't want to become repetative.

(Right now I'm just being a downer, I'll come up with some ideas once I get out of school)

It's a little bit different than that.
With layer one, there are two distinct groups: NPC's (natives of layer 1) and avatars of layer 2 characters.
In layer two, some layer 3 characters can be found as their avatars, but most likely none of them will be in the party at any particular point. Instead of a playable layer 2 character totally becoming an avatar for a layer 3 character, the layer 3 peeps can only assist a particular layer 2 character when they are totally on the same page (the sync meter idea posted above) and there is mutual consent for a momentary channeling of the programmer's abilities.
And when that happens, both of them are theoretically in control at the same time, it's just that because they're synced for that small little moment, there are no power struggles. But as soon as they un-sync, the layer 3 guy will lose the connection until they are able to sync up once again.
(Sometimes this layer stuff is confusing... @_@)

And don't worry about asking questions, each answer brings us closer to understanding what exactly we're doing and how we're going to pull it off.

We do have to be careful with how much power the programmers have. Too much and the main characters become unnecessary, too little and the programmers become useless. I imagined the programmers are unable to help directly, due to the Rogue Program, but can teach our heroes new abilities, or code new abilities for them.
I thought that maybe one of the characters without the game (the pyromaniac character, maybe) is taught how to alter the game world by learning the code. To begin with he's very weak, useless even, but as he levels he becomes INCREDIBLY powerful, maybe he can just delete enemies outright once he's a high enough level.

Kinda like Code Lyoko

Yeah, something along those.lines.

Yeah, it would be interesting to have most of the characters not really able to learn spells by level, instead needing either in-game scrolls, or yea, code from the programmers. And then making some of the hacker types have the opposite rule, where in-game scrolls don't work (since their code is odd), but they can learn by level.

We should have some sort of tutorial part where it clones a shop with pictures, and has the party talking about various items (scrolls, special medicines, and unique items that allow a party to escape a dungeon). Ditto for any custom effects, like changing parties or crafting.

I was thinking we could have a 'coding' script of some kind, but I have no idea how difficult it would be to make.
Simply put, the 'coders' on the team could be assigned roles. They can create new attacks for other teammates, make items that can be used for escape or teleportation, or necessary puzzle pieces.
Maybe to write the code, they need code fragments that are dropped by enemies, in which case the roles would be a kind of synthesis.

So instead of buying abilities, or earning them, you have to assign your characters to create them, and then learn them. Sort of like scrolls, only you have to make the scrolls first.
I don't know how similar this was to your idea, but I kind of jumped off of that

Some variant of this http://www.rpgrevolution.com/forums/index....showtopic=54928 perhaps?

Feels like you could take this further than merely skills. The whole game would be coded after all. So weps/armor, possibly even friendly ai/summons. But, admittedly, sometimes it can get confusing when one element is applied to everything.

Could even make hacking a bit like cheat codes; infinite money, infinite mp, that sorta stuff, just hard to decide when it would be best to apply it without removing all complexity from the game.

We could do something along the lines of you playing as the 'coders', it's your job to strategically create attacks that will benefit the game characters. You are in no direct control of them, but your codes show their actions.
Or maybe like megaman, you decide what moves the character has, and then they must battle with those moves.

The game mechanic of typing codes for various attacks during battle is a difficult concept, but possibly a highly rewarding one. Adaptive tutorials have to be implemented to teach the player to use various codes during battle.

My ideas for teaching the player how to code attacks:

• Blending the tutorial into the game, making it feel like it's not a tutorial at all
• Having the player "do" rather than "read", learning to code attacks by actually performing actions in the game
• We will have to spread out teaching of the mechanics to afford teaching new techniques/spells, etc (players won't understand everything right away)
• Get the player to do each thing once, and if they get stuck, place them on the right track again
• The tutorials will have to be as unobtrusive as possible, adapting to the player's learning abilities
• We can leverage what players already know about coding, such as basic math, functions, loops, if/else statements, etc.

I think it's a good idea that will take a lot of work to implement.

If that's too ambitious, we can always have a simple 'crafting' system, that creates items that teach attacks, or creates armor, etc.
The coding is a great idea (I would LOVE to see it in a game) but it seems SO difficult to do. Do we even have and scripters on board who could do that?

Hey I'm reviving this thread because there's no real thread that covers the game as a whole, we seem to have separate sections for stuff.

So I just wanted to point something out that might cause this game to be very interesting. What it seems like is we're enjoying the puzzle aspect of this game, and the way this game flows, there really isn't all that much room for leveling. (Considering most of it takes place in a "real" world where levels don't exist). I was just thinking, what if we officially call this a puzzle game, not a boring "solve this puzzle and go to next room ooh you're smart, but a game like half-life, where the puzzle isn't really a puzzle, it's more of a real world the player is trying to navigate. Now of course layer 1 is going to have puzzle rooms because it's a generic MMO, but once we get to layer 2, we can get cool things going, like navigating the junkyard and hiding in the dark, once the monsters come into layer 2 we could have puzzles that involve finding what their weaknesses are in real life. Once we get to layer 3 we get to some of the more difficult puzzles. If the blind girl character stays in the game we could have some sort of sound based puzzle, perhaps even through the use of voice acting.

Basically it would be something like this
Layer 1: Artistic, but generic MMO puzzles.
Layer 2: More innovative puzzles. Strict timing, hiding, reaction, thinking outside the box.
Layer 3: Hardcore mind puzzles. Physics puzzles. Sound puzzles. Decoding.

What do you guys think? Yes? No?

Never do timing puzzles. Certain people (me) will not be able to finish them. Do puzzles that seem like they are timing but have a "stopper" (like a lava puzzle with a switch that shuts off midway through running across, but entering another screen, you can find a switch to hit that makes it stay on) instead. Purely cerebral, puzzle combinations using tools (some of the better Zelda puzzles).

Layer three can have at least one optional puzzle (it should definitely be optional) that leads to some serious treasure, but makes the average person go "wtf?" after solving it, since it's so weird.

Layer 2 and 3 might cap at level one, and do a primarily skill-based system based on special achievements/sidequests.

Oh yeah I get what you're saying. We don't want to create any barriers for the players. Perhaps we have a timing puzzle that can be solved with a non-timing method, but there in perhaps some sort of reward for getting to the end faster.

Okay, this is the mood I have in mind for the puzzles

I'm just really pushing for layer 3 to have very detailed and realistic puzzles.

I'd definitely like to have some very complex puzzles in there, but I think we should play it on a win-win-lose basis.

At the beginning of Kingdom Hearts, you can race Rikku. It's quite a hard race, but doable. Even if you fail though, the game continues.
But we should have a lose as well.

So for every puzzle in layer 2 and 3, there are two (or more) ways to beat the puzzle, and one way to lose.
say the Junkyard. You want to progress to the end without getting caught. Getting caught causes the junkyard owner to fine you for breaking and entering. This means that later on, you don't have enough money to afford something, which puts the player at a small disadvantage.
So if you get caught at the first part of the puzzle, you get fined.
Second part of the puzzle? You get caught, but along the way you find an item the junkyard owner has been looking for. He doesn't fine you if you give him the item.
Third part of the puzzle? You escape, and the item you found can later be used in the battle against the Rogue Program.

In other puzzles, by making it further you get extra bits of dialogue. I don't want to have good/bad endings, but perhaps side stories go differently depending on how you handle puzzles.
Or maybe you avoid beating a very tough enemy. Like, you manage to harm it before the battle, so the rewards are the same, but the enemy is weakened.

So yeah, completing the puzzles properly makes the game easier, but with the same rewards, or even better rewards, but the harder puzzles don't need to be completed for the game to continue.

Yes, this is what I was getting at. In my current game I have a music puzzle. You are able to outright skip it (no reward) if you're musically untalented, you can play the first 12 or so notes as laid out by the sound sample which gives you a weak chest, or you can play the whole first verse (being a fast song, this is just over 100 notes) which awards you a high quality treasure chest, and shows all the extra chests in the next room.

Oh yeah, that's really good. Having multiple ways to solve it makes the game way more fun.
And also, being caught by the junkyard owner would be very good for character building.

Also, it might be interesting to have a hidden way of having it both ways (if you give the item away, but actually wanna keep it you can steal it back but only by sneaking in at another time. There's some guard minigame when you need to slip by when his back is turned). There might be an added cutscene where the guy still thinks he's got it, and goes to check and is like "how'd I manage to lose it again?"

I like this idea very much.


Seeing as we're discussing plot, I thought of a pretty big plot point recently (I think I might have mentioned it elsewhere...).
The programmers aren't coding a virtual reality, they're beta-testing a new programming language that they have created. I'm not fixed on a name yet, but I'm thinking either Prestige or Darwin.
It's a programming language designed to do seemingly impossible things, like create virtual worlds, or artificial intelligence. A programming language with intuition (different to intelligence). It runs on trial and improvement. You start by coding a draft of whatever you are trying to create (an AI, an object, anything) and then the program renders variations of that code. The programmers then identify the worst and best of the batch, and clean up the code where they can, and re-run it through the program. Over time the program learns what it is the programmers are trying to create, and will run multiple generations instantly. The program requires ALOT of data to run, and so the programmers have been feeding it data for decades. Eventually it knew enough to render realistic people, who have lives, and act as if they are real. They have food preferences, music they like to listen to, everything. All of this is generated and varied by the data supplied.
The final phase of the language is the ability to generate its own data. Subjects within the virtual world were given the ability to influence the program, to tell it what is good and what is bad (not morally, but realistically) and so the virtual world was crafted and made better by the AI within the world, and the AI were also improving each other. The problem is, this could only ever make AI seem real, it was Johnny's influence once he was plugged in that brought consciousness to the AI.

Anyway, this explains the security systems, the robot, and the virtual world. They are all things the programming language has designed, and the programmers are part of the refining process. They're basically beta testing all the things the language designs. Once the language is sophisticated enough to spontaneously generate intelligent security systems, purposeful robotics, and simulated worlds, it will be worth more money than anything ever invented ever.

However, the program wasn't learning fast enough, so the programmers decided they would release the virtual world to the public so that the program could gather more and more data from the people playing. Layer 1 was a trial version of this. While the characters in layer 2 play on keyboards, people in layer 3 can plug themselves into layer 1. This is why they're all kept on separate servers, so that people from layer 3 don't communicate with the AI from layer 2.
Layer 1 was found to be excessively violent though, and the programmers worried that people might die in layer 2 as well. This is why they made the resurrection code which corrupted the junkyard owner and turned him Rogue.

It's also why the Rogue Program is so dangerous. Not only does he pose a threat to layer 3 just by existing, but he's adaptable. The language that he runs on is changing his code according to his will. Every second he becomes smarter, more powerful. Once a copy of him is inside the robot, he's even more dangerous. He's learning how to improve his design.
Also, when he first comes to power in layer 2, he accidentally blows up the town, revealing the data underneath that he escapes into. What's he gonna do when he escapes into layer 3? Exact same thing, but on a much bigger scale

As always, the above is subject to change or just not being involved in the plot at all. Thoughts?

Probably Darwin ("progress" motif). Or Prometheus (the whole motif of giving godlike power away). That said, I think Prometheus is a cliche program name now, so probably the first.

So things auto-correct to appear more real? Oooh, creepy.

Not sure he can (directly) invade layer 3, but he can certainly cause problems as code. Security systems attacking, malfunctioning traffic lights (or worse, if cars are now automated), and a robot apocalypse if left unchecked.

Well his power would be limited to the facility. As soon as he showed up the programmers would have stopped any data flowing to the outside world. They can't risk anyone seeing their research before its complete. But yeah, The Rogue Program will take control of turrets and other security devices that were being tested with the language.

auto correcting is a good way to put it, so I take it you like the Darwin idea?

Sure, let's go with it.

For this to really read true though, we'd need some really over-the-top arrogance from some of the programmers. Where they think they're doing the world a favor or something, so when things go wrong, they're REALLY freaked out.

Not just turrets, in addition to that and the main robot there should be dozens or even hundreds of tiny spider drones (they're for repairing wires in tiny crawlspaces), to the point where although you can fight, you'll more likely try to run. This would make the eventual blackout even creepier, all you can see is the shiny metal bodies of scores of mechanical spiders (have I mentioned i have arachnophobia).

I'm like, super into making the blackout terrifying XD
I like where this is all going, and I like the name Darwin.
One question. Why does a programming facility have turrets in the halls?

Because it's awesome. But, yea, it probably wouldn't. It might have some type of motion sensor system when you have to sneak past or robotic guards (with turrets) would come. But mounted turrets, is a tad implausible. However, see above. We can do it precisely on that grounds that it's cool.

I mean, I'm all for turrets, we just need a good reason for them.

Maybe they have like an off limits floor that people aren't supposed to go in, the elevator skips that floor. "It might as well be 13 since most places do that anyway" and it's where they stored the more shady and unethical projects.

I kinda covered it here:


The lab needs security, and they have a program that can create intelligent security systems, so they kill two birds with one stone.
The systems are automatic. They won't attack anyone who has proper clearance (represented by an ID badge) and if you don't have an ID badge then they still won't fire unless authorization is given. If no orders are given within five minutes, the security system assumes breach and fires warning shots. If the intruder does not remain still, lethal force is used.
This is another reason they have robots, to test the lethal force without killing a person.

So yeah, basically the program is also capable of designing security systems, and the programmers are testing them too.

Ummm...? Under normal circumstances, it would never use lethal force. It would fire warning shots, then try to hamstring its target by firing on the legs, and use the robots to escort its target off premises. This is a safeguard against someone forgetting their ID. Also, machines using lethal force would generate far more bad press, causing them to be shut down fairly quickly. So yea, normally these things are designed to hit non-vital areas, and use a low power laser. Which makes it even more scary, that it has this kind of precision and control and it's focused on not killing people. Anyone who took it over would easily be able to kill someone. This aspect actually makes it more scary.

Also, who stands still if a system prepares to fire? Maybe if they continue to advance the use of lethal force would be warranted, but attacking retreating people seems really off.

well, it's all top secret, so Asimov's three laws might not apply, but you're probably right about non lethality.
Also, I was kind of assuming there would be some kind of voice to warn off intruders as soon as they enter, and the authorization part is so a security officer can look at the video feed and see if it's really an intruder or not. No authorization means the security has been compromised and the lab is in danger. Non lethal force is preferable, but this place is probably at least a little illegal.

Your way is probably better, just thought I'd say my piece.

Well, that is true, there may have been a few "accidental" deaths from people advancing too far into the corridor towards the secret labs. But even so, it should not be programmed to fire on retreating people.

For the sake of the game, the turret's range is 12 blocks of RPG maker space. At 18 blocks it will give a warning, at 14 blocks it will fire warning shots. Although once the rogue program enters into the system it will override the warning system. You just have to make sure not to be in range.

I feel like the turrets are going to be a really cool puzzle.

As a puzzle, how does this work? Do we have cameras on one side that turn one way, then one the other size in the opposite, forcing you to zigzag? Is it done by a laser grid? Is it a timing puzzle when you have to cross in rhythm of the thing flicking on and off?

So. I just spent AGES reading up on all this, or most of it so far. I am really really liking where this is going. I do have a few things to say though.
If we are so concerned with reality upon reality and everyone matters, why does Layer One get such negative treatment? Don't get me wrong, I think blowing up Layer One is a great idea, it really makes the threat seem real.

I just don't think all aspects of Layer One should be gone. I think that when the players in Layer Two get their powers, they should also get a bit of 'personality' within that shows that their characters were alive too, maybe not as alive as they are, but it's food for thought.

This plays into another idea I had. The last boss should be fought on all three layers. I thought up a small way this could be worked out. The avatars from Layer One can get their bodies back while in the security system, and deal with the boss in a standard RPG last boss kind of way.

During this time, and maybe between each form, the Layer Two people are running around inside the Security System, fighting bits and pieces of the last boss, but in a different style? Maybe solving puzzles?

Finally on Layer Three, the programmers are running around, doing the other types of puzzles and trying to prevent the Rogue Program from leaving.

I realize this has a lot going for it already, but I thought that I would put my thoughts in this hat.

The only problem is that layer 1 was never very real at all, but I agree we could do something to keep it alive.
I guess layer 1 becomes 'real' once layer 2 is damaged. If a L2 character says "remember the time we stormed that castle in the haunted forests? If we did that we can do this." then right in saying that they actually did that. It doesn't matter that it was a game because it turns out their whole life has been virtual anyway.
I also still think it would help if a character from L2 was something of a roleplayer. Their way of coping with the whole thing is basically to buy into it completely and just pretend they're doing a quest. It's kind of sad, brings in a L1 character, and it can be funny too.

The three-layered boss sounds good in theory, but it would have to be spread out across three different engines.
Okay, so lets say once the L2 characters are in L3's security systems, they find out the Rogue Program is backing himself up into a locked off version of L1, sort of like he did originally, but this time it's more serious because he'd be able to destroy all the backups. So a few L2 characters journey into L1 to kill him there. Meanwhile the other L2 characters try to lock off any progression the Rogue Program might make from where they are, and also they try to make the turrets stop firing at L3 characters. Eventually the L2 characters find the rogue program and attack it, but it escapes into the robot. Then in L3 they have the final confrontation with the robot (this could theoretically be the toughest battle of them all, because no one in L3 has real combat experience).
The confrontation ends with the L2 characters figuring out how to use the turrets, activating one, and firing upon the Rogue Program as it tries to leave the lab.

Is that multi-layered enough?

That is pretty multii-layered ;lol; Here is my reasoning behind what I had said before.

Layer 1 - Cannot actually destroy Rogue Program, but they can 'kill' him for a short period of time, forcing him to hybernate.

Layer 2 - This allows the guys in layer 2 to have a bit more freedom in the security system and make a bit of progress.

Layer 3 - Which deactivates or weakens certain aspects of the Security System, allowing these guys to move on.

Layer 1 - The Rogue Program revives itself and transforms, not really being stronger, just...different.

~Repeat.

That's purely from a plot point perspective. Also, what do you mean multiple systems? I thought it ended up being all done on VX/A just using different sprites/Graphics to represent the other layers?

I imagine it done a bit like Contact for the DS.

I like this. A lot.

As for the multi layered boss, it could be interesting, but to me it seems a little bit unnecessary. I feel that once the player realizes the game world is fake, they don't return to it.

Maybe in order to destroy the robot they need to hack into the system, which involves using the layer 1 game to destroy an essence. Not playing as the original RPG characters, but being the layer 3 guys using other avatars to fight the program. Then then layer 3 does a bunch of puzzles or something, then the enemy retreats into layer 2 and the characters need to destroy themselves in order to get rid of it.

Or maybe something less sad.