Its been pretty hellish out there recently.


Sadly one person is confirmed dead as far as I know.
I expect things will get worse before they get better.

Just wondering how other Londoners here at RRR are doing right now?
Hope things are ok on your end.

To get some idea of how messed up things are right now
http://thewestlondoner.wordpress.com/2011/...ot-information/

I'm way up north so I'm a long way from it all. Surprising how quickly things spread and how little control there was.

Looking at this: http://www.channel4.com/news/london-riots-...ve-timeline-map it's horrible to think all of this is going on around where you live. How's things?

Surprisingly, it hasn't been too bad.
Heard a lot of sirens day and night going by.
Although no actual yells and screams so far.
I hope it stays that way.

Woolwich (which I'm close too) was looted last night and the shops in Greenwich have boarded up their windows.
So I hope things around here will be ok for a little while.

I would type a proper reply but I am so enraged by all this, that my computer would explode.

An absolute disgrace - the poor police having to stand there and take it - all because of the Human Rights Act.

The usual rubbish about poor people who have no jobs - yeah right, funny how the majority of normal people on in the same boat don't act like that.

Brazen looting - tv's and the latest trainers- and now Manchester and the Midlands is kicking off again now.

Too little discipline in homes and at school - no real threat of prison or otherwise as a deterrent.GRR

I hope so, you know small business people are going to be shattered. My heart goes out to them always, since larger companies are always crushing them now the people are.

Any further north from Leeds and it's gonna get to the North East, I actually wonder if this is going to have any effect with my work. Some routes taken are through areas having trouble.


Latest:

Video of a live feed with fights breaking out.


Should the police be getting tougher?

They should have from the start- many people lost their homes.

There should be a zero tolerance policy and the offenders jailed - at best they get an ASBO and community service.

The police will have to get tougher, for their own safety as well as trying to put a stop to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ne_w2rvBvU

They were forced to just back away because of the number of rioters.

I've been trying to follow along with the media, but it's like pulling teeth getting them to provide concrete information.

What exactly started these riots? Was it due to financial downturn, or something else?

Irregardless, the economy everywhere is starting to tank, even here in the U.S. and I wouldn't be surprised if things like this start happening in other places as well. Such a shame.

Shocking, still can't believe it. Its a real wake up call for the government, keep reducing the police numbers each
year and things are going to get very sticky when major riots flare up. Just look at the student riot last year, the
police were totally outnumbered, completely rendered useless infact. Put together a riot squad...how ridiculous ?
where do they come from I wonder. Theresa May must be wishing she was anywhere but in govt right now.
Okay, so we have 16,000 police units tonight, it will need two policemen for each arrest !!
Mind you, with facebook, blogs of all kinds....its all becoming very organised too. Me thinks, Birmingham will be in
for more riots, as will Manchester over the next week.
Reasons ?....the govt has simply run dry of handing out of tax payers money for these dependent people....so lets
riot. Yes, its a shame, infact sad to see those innocent businesses caught up in the crossfire. I see Theresa May is
in two minds about the water canon, what ?....get em in, no questions.
As for the police, there's been so many law suits brought agains't them, I dare say they are too busy thinking about
their own jobs, think about that guy that was wrongfully hit and died for example...and copper consequently dismissed.
Interesting to note the riots are occuring in multicultural areas with high unemployment. Tough times.

Riots in Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds according to Sky News.

At the end of the day - decent people do not steal, set fire to peoples properties and attack police, just because things are tough.

Many people are unemployed, all are struggling to pay their bills- yet these are mindless thugs with no respect for anyone.

The police are powerless- watch the difference in how they have to pander to criminals- Police Camera Stop UK versus the USA version.

The full facts are not out about the shooting of a known criminal - but our police rarely shoot unless they are threatened- and even if they acted wrongly that still does not make the riots acceptable.

I think it might be a combination of poverty and a man who was killed because of possible gang relations.
Actually, I think the original protest was because of that mans death, but it kind of grew into more things from there.


Its like she can't see the damage they've done or the potential future damage.

I'm too dissappointed in the police and the rioters to want to say much...

This whole business about someone getting shot starting all these riots is bull.
All the stupid kids wanted to riot anyway. They don't really give a damn about police corruption or anything.
They just wanted to steal things. It's inexcusable.

I'm equally dissappointed with the UK government. They've become too soft, worrying about stupid things such as benefit fraud or speeding.
If it were my call, I'd warrant the use of bean-bag shotguns, or something that can cause pain but not bodily damage.

The UK government need to either Step up, or step down.

Completely. Just watched on the news about that guy that was helped up by a surprisingly good samaratin figure after being
caught up in the heat of things.....only to have his ruck sack looted by the very same man that helped him ?????
Thats actually scarey....I still can't believe its happening in this country.
Now then, if its hitting Leeds, and likely to be in Chapeltown (my guess)....I'll be driving through there this week.
Was supposed to be staying with friend too at Fulham this weekend.....its quite off putting, though I'm still off.
But getting back to our police, its sad to see them getting hurled at with all sorts....and all they can do is retreat back.
What happened to the SSS treatment ?

Wyatt posted this on HBG and I thought it best to spread the word here: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337


Wow only posted the information 30 min ago and already they've got over 2,000 extra signatures. C'mon everyone lets make this happen.

That won't solve anything. One of the main issues that caused the riots is the lack of income they have. This would just make things worse.

Support from Scotland, even though I'm not physically there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNGCoLh9XXQ

Video from SirRobottoble.

Bah! Tosh! The lot of it!
Studies have shown (I'll look up citation if I must) that the human mind compensates happiness and well-being relative to its average state in recent times. This means that a bum has the same number of 'good vs bad' days as a millionaire. Happiness is purely relative.
And there are several countries where people can survive on £2 a day (and my heart goes out to them) and they're still capable of being happy and not harming other human beings.
I do not buy this "we're poor so we're rioting" thing for a minute. I haven't seen a single picture of food, or water, or necessities being stolen. I have seen a picture of several games, a protein milkshake mix, headphones, and several other assorted 'false-needs'.
Studies have also shown (again with the citation) that depression is relative to how you relate to your peers. Usually this is relative though, because while your neighbor has his new car, you just got a promotion. Or while your neighbor's fired, you just got a final notice.
Same country, same boat.
The problem with rioters though is that they're measuring their happiness (or self-worth if you wanna get psychological) with things. This works well normally for most people, but when you have HUNDREDS of people taking to the streets and stealing things, all of those things become meaningless. Your 42' plasma screen TV means NOTHING if your friend Jeff just nicked a 44'.
And so they go back out.

Conclusion: They can't win. At the end of all of this they will feel no happier than they did beforehand. Then the police will come to their door and take it all away, arrest them, give them community service, they'll struggle to ever get a job again, and their life will be in the shitter.
On the bright side, the aforementioned studies (if we are to trust them) mean eventually they'll be happy again... Well maybe not.


On a more opinionated note, I have to take my hat off (notes to self to buy hat) to people on twitter. While several are taking part in the riots, several others are taking pictures and names of people who are rioting and looting and are trying to cooperate with the police. There are several pictures circulating (according to a friend of mine who is plugged into Twitter something fierce) of the looters - and more planning to be taken.

Personal opinion: It's despicable. If anything kicks off in my town I'll grab some green paint and a water pistol and mark the buggers, better yet I'll set some bear traps...

Sadly, I live RIGHT in the CENTER of it all!
My town got wrecked and newsletters were sent to every door in my street to tell us to not go out.
It depresses me, why can't people JUST STOP THE MADNESS!
There have been ridiculous facebook groups of stupid things like 'You can burn down buses... Shops... But allow greggs" and some gibberish like that.
There has even been a case of a wounded bleeding helpless man on the floor, yet some of the looters/chavs tell him to get up (ignoring his pain) so that THEY CAN TAKE HIS VALUABLES! What can of world are we living in!?
Also, near my house, there was this shoe shop, one girl (who was a looter) took her time to try on a shoe in the middle of the madness just to make sure it fit her. JUST TO MAKE SURE IT FIT HER!?!?!?"? They are treating this like a social event. It's not right. I'm depressed again.

I don't think this is anything new, but.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan
although this brings an eerie chill, and reminds me of a couple similar events:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Stanley_Cup_riot

personally, I think they should've just beat up the goalie and left the rest of the city in relative peace. What a bad game.

I'm in the south of london, and so far so good, the closest I heard the riots coming from was brixton, and I live in Penge East. Which, I guess, is quite a distance away, but also never too far, to be honest I'm expecting the raids to come as far as here, mainly because that guy that was killed was tied to so many people. It probably is coming down here, The shops around here now have a 5pm curfew, and police are out and about everywhere. But so far so good.

It won't happen, even if that petition were to get 20 million signatures.

My heart goes out to all of those affected by this... I really do wish I could return to visit my friends in Fort William (Scotland), Edinburgh, London, and Manchester, though I will not be making any plans to return to Europe from the U.S. until the financial situation is corrected.
Currently it appears to be the safest place to live, and I've been quite pleased with the police in this country as they are not as limited as those, particularly, in the U.K.

Further, I strongly agree with kaz and Sparrowsmith's opinions relating to the indecent actions that these rioters are partaking in.
Somewhere along the line, whether you like it or not, there are some people that you really wish were given better training as children... or that were simply not born. <_<

If such rioting were to happen here, I wouldn't be surprised if citizens would take up arms to shoot the darned rioters (I know they all have weapons of their own, and I know they wouldn't put up with that crap). Either that, or they would join them and there would be a nasty death toll... =\

I have just discovered, that it is starting to reach the South West, a few of my friends have been told to flee exeter, due to the possibility of riots! *sigh* thank god there is no football team for my little village lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FC7Ou-OdcI

An extremely disturbing video. This needs to be stopped, now.

Alternatively:

The big concern for me here in the states, and I'm share elsewhere as well, are the amount of handouts the government gives. Eventually, all this will do is bleed the tax payer dry, and leave little alternative for the government. I understand the need to feed the hungry and help the poor, but all too often people elect not to work when they can, and the people who truly need the help suffers. There's always a solution: have people put back into the community if they can't work, give non-violent convicts the option for working for the city, anything that can help reduce the amount of money needing to be paid out, but I guess government is not in the position to think and solve.

I'm in Wolverhampton. Bad riots here last night. I went into the city today to help clear up but it was already pretty tidy, bar a few people in tears boarding up their shops - independant stores which have been there for many years.

Rioters should be removed from society. Killed. Imprisoned.

I don't care about human rights at this stage - they forfeighted their rights when they ruined businesses, destroyed communities, and torched the homes of many, many families.

There is absolutely no excuse, and no way in hell it can be let off with slapped wrists.

Three men were mowed down in Birmingham protecting their premises. All dead. Hit and run; man arrested on suspicion of murder.

Shop in Manchester:



Fire outside the Bull Ring in Birmingham (turned out to be a car, but pretty big!)



And well, thank god I'm not in London.

I think this video of a Sony Warehouse (or rather, "the" Sony Warehouse) speaks for itself:









I am completely and utterly serious when I say these people should just be plain removed from society. There is no excuse at all.

This is the image that got me more than anything



This woman home in flames - leaping for her life.

Most people in this country know that lack of discipline, and no real threat of prison - these animals do as they want.

Some of them were filmed coming out of court laughing because they got ASBO's - some got ten weeks in prison. Ten weeks - what a bloody farce.

When the media published this report today-

Prison

Well read the replies-

Assuming harsher punishment even is an effective deterrent, I doubt it would help in this case. A big reason for why the looters roam freely is that the police is spread to thin to effectively stop them. So, even with harsher punishment, each individual looter has a very low chance of getting brought to said punishment anyway, or at least they think so.

Problem is they will just steal more to make up for the loss of income.

I noticed that the moment more police were on the streets and the threat of plastic bullets - the trouble stopped. Threat of punishment - works like a charm.

So what happens when people are released from prison and they can't get a job and have no access to any benefits? Seeing as some of the argued contributory factors towards the riots are "Social exclusion; poverty; the growing gap between rich and poor", I'm really not sure what good such a idea, if implemented, will do.

They deserve to be poor. They deserve social exclusion. Anyone burning, looting, stealing, deserves everything they get.

It is terrible that a social barrier exists; but this completely isn't the way to solve it. Ruining independant businesses, tarnishing the cities so they lose investment, killing people - is not the way to break the status quo.

If they really cared they'd publish a book, make a blog, run petitions such as the one seen above, write to their MP, join a political party or start their own. They have a voice right now: rioting will take that voice away.

They are scum and there is absolutely no justifying, no excusing anything they've done, ever. At all.

This

and if they are bored they can help their local community - develop a sense of worth - gain some valuable life experience,

Of course if there was actually real punishment for their behavior- and considering many were known to the police- they do this type of thing on a lower level daily- mugging, robbery etc.

"Richard Mannington Bowes, 68, who was set upon as he tried to stamp out a fire during riots in Ealing has died, police say."

This is what I'm talking about. Someone who sets on an old man trying to put out a fire? Remove them. Delete them. They should not EXIST. They do not have that right.

That's awful, I clicked onto something earlier watching reports and whatnots.
All of the media and such reported these as Riots and similar, however not one official said that word, it was mainly 'looters'.
If they were to declare it as a riot then they'd have to compensate everyone that was a victim, even if people were uninsured, riot victims can still claim compensation.
Avoid the word, avoid the payouts.

Bare in mind that roughly half of the rioters are minors, some (allegedly) still being in primary school. I usually don't blame parents in situations like this, but when your 12 year old son is out on the streets during the looting, and is coming home with a bunch of new stuff, and his face is plastered all over the news, it's kind of obvious what's going on. Not all the blame lies in those looting, they're just idiots, the bigger problem is the number of parents/friends who are condoning the looters behavior - despite not actively looting themselves.

The point here is that a lot of these looters are too young to have voices, and the people that do have voices are holding a double standard. The looting was started by people that do have a voice, but now it's an excuse for pre-teens to have an early christmas.

Exactly what to do then becomes a 'shade of grey'. Can you socially exclude someone who is as such a susceptible age? Do you pass the charges on to the parents? For at least half the looters, the penalties are going to be either too little, or too much, and there's very little that can be done middle-way.

One parent was speaking to Sky News and he said " what can I do - I am not allowed to lock him in his room, I cannot discipline him with the fear of " corporal punishment", he is not disciplined at school and there is no threat of him going to prison".

Yes, they do, according to the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, and the Human Rights Act 1998. Article 2 of the European Convention of Human Rights protects the right of every person to their life.

I notice you use the less emotive words "remove" and "delete", instead of "execute". The death penalty is outdated, expensive, ineffective as a deterrent, illegal and it kills innocent people.

Regardless, they are going to be in prison for a long, long time.

I hope they thought it was worth it, killing a 68 year old man.

I agree with everything Rob_Riv said. Additionally, in democracies, justice is not built on the simple concept of "vengeance" but on "education": the convict has to understand the meaning of the sentence and of their actions in the perspective of social reinsertion. A mere "an eye for an eye" reaction is not only outdated but in contradiction with one of the most basic principles of democracy.

I used the words remove and delete because I too don't agree with the death penalty, but all the same, they can't be allowed back into society. Life imprisonment would work but that is costly and also unfair; in truth I don't know what to do with them. Short of starting a new Australia. They have the right to their life, yes; but they breached our rights too with no mercy and no morals. Setting a fire is one thing. Beating somebody up for putting it out is entirely different territory.

I saw this, an I was compelled to disagree with the parent. There were bad eggs before corporal punishment was banned, and now that it is banned you don't see teenagers like myself out on the streets. All of my friends (some of whom are in London right now) are outright offended by the riots. Apparently they are able to have a conscience without it being beat into them.
I agree that parents should be able to lock their child in doors, but the parents acts as if there is nothing they could have done. Like for the entire child's life the parents have stood back and done nothing at all. This is simply not true.
If your child attempts to leave the house, first you withhold any rewards you may give them. Pocket money or any other rewards parents deliver to good behavior are to be immediately threatened with withdrawal, any existing items of value (consoles, laptops, televisions, MP3 players) are also to be confiscated with notification. This will probably not work on its own, but contributes.
The child returns with looted gadgetry, express disappointment and inform the police. If the child leaves the house again then confiscate all stolen goods and return to police.
Lock doors for child's return (as far as I'm aware there are no laws against this) and refuse to unlock unless they come in without any loot. The moment they show up the police should also be informed.

I'm seventeen (a minor) and I think I have a better system for dealing with child looters than most parents do maybe I'm missing some massive step, but it all seems so obvious to me.





In war there are tales of men singlehandedly jumping into enemy trenches, capturing hundreds of enemy soldiers, and walking away heroes. The enemy soldiers in these situations have been known to applaud and pat the back of the soldier who captured them, as a sign of respect and good faith. It is human to congratulate the other side on their courage and nobility, regardless of the opposing sides.
The looters do not show that same kindness.
Usually in serious discussions, someone eventually says, "Well they're as bad as nazis!" but in this case, I am incline to go further. Nazis (well, german soldiers anyway) could be inclined to praise the man for putting out the fire, because it takes courage and will, but the looters were barbaric when they killed him.

I wouldn't say they deserve to lose their rights, but what they have done is worse than enemy soldiers in war. It is shooting the proverbial medic, and it is truly barbaric.
It is not my place to imagine a correct course of action, but it must be severe, because these rioters are not even human anymore.

Thank you for saying that!
I completely agree with you. At this point in time (more than any other) these rioters are becoming barbaric, and any reason(s)/rationalities they may have had for rioting are simply NO excuse for these actions.