So you look at the RMVX RTP and decide "Hmmm, the type of character I want isn't there. Lemme go look for a new one!" or that you want your game to actually have its own look. This is great! Be careful of where you take your resources from though.
If you make them yourself (and you indeed can do this, and for a shameless plug, my own pixel blog at http://pixel.oceansdream.net goes over some of this!), then that is no problem. But if you're looking for resources available online, take a bit of care first.

When looking for resources, be sure that the resources are actually available for use. Just because you see a graphic online doesn't mean it's ripe for the taking. Some people may not want to see their graphics in anyone elses game, and some people are just fine with it as long as you give credit. Please do. Write it down somewhere even, so you don't forget later to credit them!

If you see a graphic and are not sure where it's from, ASK. There's likely someone who will know. Then it can be found if it is okay to use it or not. Some people make resources gladly for other people to use. Some people don't want that. And doing something like ripping graphics from another indie game is terrible. Even if the game is in a different language, don't assume you can just get away with it. Use resources that are available to use, try making your own, maybe ask or pay someone to make you some, but don't rip other peoples resources without permission!

If you try to contact someone about if it's okay to use a resource and they don't get back to you, assume it's NOT okay to use it unless you're told otherwise. They might have switched emails, rarely check it, or some other reason but might still not want to see their graphics used.

This is a thread that everyone here should read. It is never okay to use someone else's work without their permission. This goes for any kind of resource - music you find on Youtube, character art you find on DeviantArt, sprites you find on a Japanese site, or sprites you rip from games. Artists slave away to produce these resources and their will should be respected. Whether it's stealing resources from someone's site or from Final Fantasy, plagiarism is never okay.

As an addendum: Crediting the original artist does not make it okay unless the artist explicitly gave permission for their work to be used in the first place.

I don't see the problem with using graphics from commercial games because no one would ever get the impression that you are in any way responsible for the resources, or that an iota of credit goes to you for their existence. However, ripping stuff from indie games can be dangerous because not everyone knows about that indie game and they might get the impression that you made them. Even if you throw in a credit tag. Plus it's a matter of respect. People make fan games because they're fans (typically) but stealing resources from random RPG Maker Game X probably has little to do with your admiration for that game, and more to do with "That looks pretty, me takey."

There is a problem with that though. You are still directly ripping their resources that they put time, effort, and money into. This kind of warped logic will get you in trouble someday. Just because it is well known, to the point where everyone could recognize any aspect of it upon first glance or hearing it, doesn't give you or anyone else the green light to use their resources.

If you want to make a fan game, directly contact them and request permission to use their material in a game. Specify what you will be using, how it will be used, and what your goal will be for making this game. Then, if they turn you down, move on.

Bottom line, unless it is your own creation don't use it without permission. Even then, be sure to credit whomever was responsible for making the resource in question.

I don't know, a hobbyist's little project doesn't seem to warrant a greenlighting from a multi-million dollar corporation.

That's the same kind of excuse used when torrenting films and other material. I can't afford it, they make enough money anyway, or it should be cheaper. Bottom line, whether you agree with it or not, is that it's stealing.

Sorry, but there is no nice way to say this. I can't help whether or not this offends you, it's just the way it is.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think either of us are going to change our opinions on the matter.

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of basic ethics. Saying "it's just your opinion" is cowering from the point.

The issue with this is that you're STEALING someones work. It's not an issue of overused, unknown, or widely known resources. There are PLENTY of free use resources that people can use in their games but everyone seems to accept rips and use them even though the very act is stealing.
The reasons a number of fan game get shut down isn't because they're fan games, it's because they're stealing the countless hours of work put into each individual item that someone else slaved at to create. This isn't limited to graphical resources but also to things like Final Fantasy's staple Spell Tiers, and unique gameplay mechanics that are a blatant rip of something else.

Yea, you're right. But I really don't have anything else to say. And I'm not sure if there's anything else to be said.

Anyways, maybe RPGRevolution shouldn't even allow blatant uses of other peoples works (i.e. fan games, ripped graphics) or at least stealing from other indie devs. I know the first one would be a lot easier to enforce. I

I agree with the hobbyist mentality that has been mentioned. RPG Maker hobbyist != indie developer. Most rpg maker users do not consider themselves indie developers, they are hobbyists doing their own little thing for themselves, and maybe to share with a few hundred players in whatever community they're in. Its like someone making an AMV thats mashed up of clips from real anime or shows - are you saying these people should make all the clips themselves because thats the 'ethical' thing to do? Thats not the point. RPG Maker is first and foremost an exercise in game design, and as such acquiring original resources is low priority; they just want something that approximates their vision so they can share their ideas. The purpose is not to take credit for other people's work, but to share their concepts in a indefinite prototype as a hobby. Taking resources from a commercial game as a hobbyist should not (and is not) considered taboo.

I was under the impression that this thread stated that you should not take resources without permission from ARTISTS due to ETHICS. The fact of the matter is that resources in a commercial game belong to game company, not the artists they employed. Taking credit for other people's work is one thing, but can you really blame hobbyists for taking shortcuts so they can have a bit of fun?

Having said that, if you're using rpg maker as an indie dev tool such as I am, I don't think you should be using anyone else's resources.

Apparently there was more to be said, as evidenced by Vanit. It's a much better articulation of what I wanted to get acorss.

Tell me, what is the difference from ripping Final Fantasy 6 sprites and/or battlers and using them in your game. From ripping Microsoft Office 2003?

Both are outdated and have been around for a long time. I'm curious as to how you answer this.

It's more like ripping FF sprites and sound effects and ripping Microsoft Office icons and sound effects.

Or maybe romhacking an actual FF game and downloading Office 2k3.

Eh? I'm not sure what resources you're talking about ripping from MS Office 2003, but the age of the source has nothing to do with the comment I made. The point is as a hobbyist you're not really worried about where you pull the resources from that you use to supplement your own work. Its not an ethical dilema. Its simply that you're not in it for taking credit for anything, aside from maybe the compilation or your design. Its a learning experience, and for educational purposes a lot of things are exempt from copyright so long as you're not passing it off as your own work.

You are drastically understating what you are taking.

I cannot comprehend how you see taking sprites from a video game is comparable to saving an icon from Microsoft Office.

A more realistic comparison would be to say, ripping sprites from Final Fantasy is just like taking Microsoft Word and Powerpoint. But, I didn't take all of Office, so it's okay.

As for Vanit, your mentality on this subject seems to fall within the realms of "everyone else has been doing it, so what's the big deal?"

Stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter if you're the first kid on the block to do it, or you live in an area where stealing is a way of life and most people don't bat an eye at it.

So applying this, can a hobbyist take resources from other games on RPG Maker websites ethically (as it doesn't seem to be a dilemma to you)?

Sprites = Program? I don't think so.
If you were making your own program, you might rip icons from others to start off. But if you were going to really push the program as your new fantastic wonder software, maybe even sell it as one point, using those ripped icons and sounds wouldn't fly.

EDIT: Now we have a mod here, I want to ask. Why are blatantly ripped sprites/resourced allowed?

Read my first post. Whether you take credit for someone's work or not, it's still theft to use it without their express permission. It is NOT exempt from copyright for "educational purposes" unless the original artist explicitly says so. You clearly have no idea how copyright law works. I'm not sure if you're misinformed or deliberately spreading misinformation, but what you said is simply untrue.

You are doing a very bad thing with cross comparison. I am not comparing sprites to programming directly. I am comparing the importance factor. As in the sprites of Final Fantasy 6 are as important to the entire game as Microsoft Word and Powerpoint are to Office as a program.

EDIT: Original post resotred, sorry Rob Riv.



The sprites of Final Fantasy 6 are as important to the entire game as Microsoft Word and Powerpoint are to excel as a program?

I don't know how it is in your country, but here in Australia there are provisions in the copyright law that allow anyone to ignore copyright for educational purposes.

What matters isn't the law in your country or the law in my country, but the law that RRR adheres to. RRR is owned by iEntry, which is subject to US copyright law. Therefore, it is illegal to use stolen resources even for educational purposes in works posted here.

Furthermore, what part of a fangame is educational?

No I think you'd find if someone were to take action against me its the law in my country that decides it (if I'm doing it while in Australia). =/

udivision, try to refrain from editing out content of your posts.


That is very vague. Please be specific when referencing the law. I've had a quick scan of the Copyright Act 1968 and Copyright Amendment Bill 2006 and "educational" isn't stated as one of the five reasons for fair dealing.

@Vanit
Out of curiosity, of the hundreds of ripped graphics and resources from other games used regularly, how many of them are used for educational purposes?

The people who run this site should really debate whether to continue allowing such activities to continue on these forums during their next meeting. It'd be really bold move for an RM community to finally reject the ripping of resources and such practices.

Sorry, Rob Riv, I fixed it. Zortik had edited his post since then, though.

I don't know. It's not considered a big deal, I guess.

Oh...
A little anti-climatic.

In my opinion, it's not considered a big deal, because if the creators really cared about people ripping or using the graphics, they'd be shutting places down or placing law suits against people who host them and such.

But that's just my point of view.

That's just a pleasant way of saying that it's okay to do illegal/unethical things as long as you aren't caught.

Just to make sure, I think Resource Dragon was stating his opinion on why it's not a big deal, not his opinion on the matter itself.

I think I'll work on my next degree in Australia, where I can take other people's games and sell them for educational purposes in a indie game market simulation for research. It's completely kosher, since I can ignore copyright and sell other people's stuff as well as bootleg games as part of my educational research into the gaming market, right?

I honestly think that, even if it's illegal, it's a free/capitalist system. Do whatever you can to grab power and success- Lie, cheat, steal, it's all inherent with the system of freedom and capitalism. Someone else owning assets that you want to use is stifling your innovation? Kill them and take those for yourself! I mean, it's for educational purposes, right?

What I really think is, if you ever start making something with clean and custom assets, and successfully sell it (lol), you'll be all fine and happy with your experience using rips and other people's assets. However, once someone rips or obtains your assets, and uses them for "educational purposes" or on an obscure community, you'll rage over them. BUT WAIT- You can't do anything to them because that would be hypocritical, and you wouldn't want to seem like a hypocritical capitalist that changes his opinion based on what's the most convenient and beneficial for him, right?

Uh, all of them? They may not identify it to themselves as a formally educational activity, but as I said earlier, its first and foremost an exercise in game design as a hobby, and by designing and implementing a game they are refining their skills through practicing, and in essence are teaching themselves problem solving skills. This is really a whole other debate as to whether something can be counted as educational if its not intentionally so; but as being educational is an attribute that is an emergent property of overcoming new challenges, I'd say this is the case.


http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/con...968133/s40.html I don't think any of us are lawyers (or if we are, any intepretation may be a conflict of interest), but I think the following statement may be construed as it not being copyright infringement:

A fair dealing with a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work, or with an adaptation of a literary, dramatic or musical work, for the purpose of research or study does not constitute an infringement of the copyright in the work.

Its a little grey because it does not address "works within a work", as game resources may be defined as, and there is a subsection that goes on to clarify that copying literary work is not an infringement only when an institution is involved, but otherwise theres no reference to the education having to be formally recognised. Arguably you could also debate how interchangeable "education" is with "research and study", as the latter is a documentation process and the former is a result of the latter.

But I invite those reading this thread to not get childishly hung up on semantics by attempting to disarm my statement with a strawman attack and keep on topic to the point of my statement. The OP by Oceans_Dream was not about legality, but ethics - and I don't think its unethical to use resources from commercial games as placeholders when your main goal is to share an approximation of what you intended your game to be presented as. A lot of the artists in here are projecting their personal feelings onto the game companies about how they should feel about other people using their stuff, but you're forgetting that most of them actually love it when people make homages to their IPs - many have openly stated this, Valve for example. Which leads me to...


This is taking my comment out of context. You KNOW I was talking about commercial games. I stated from the start, as others did, that indie games are offlimits because then you run the risk of causing confusion if someone sees their art in your game first and, even if you did credit them, you could still wind up getting the praise, or worse, mainstream attention that leads even more people to think its your work as they enevitably won't read the credits. Personally, I think taking custom resources from another person's game without permission is unethical, but from a hobbyist's perspective it may not be. For a hobbyist the point of the exercise is implenting their concept. Its like telling a story and using anime figurines to act it out. They're not your characters, but its a close enough approximation that you can convey the concept. I'm not saying they're unethical, I'm saying its not a dilema in the first place because its so far removed from the purpose of what they're doing.

Also I'd like to clarify what I'm not advocating is plagiarism, that is never acceptable.


Before I reply to this can you clarify if this is a personal attack on me? Because you got so many things wrong about me I don't know where to begin. I'm defending a position here, but its not my position. I don't count myself as a hobbyist and I certainly don't use anyones resources as I said earlier. You only have to check out the link in my sig to see I'm working on something using completely my own resources (IP aside, haha).

What's the difference between and indie game and a commercial game, really? You're assuming that no one will get confused because everyone will obviously know all the commercial games out there that one could steal content from. Isn't that a far-fetched assumption? Let's say that someone's game (I'll use Sailerius) gains great fame and a lot of people know about it. Does it make it more ethical or more permissible to steal his content? (I'd do it anyway, just because it's Sailerius, and I'd make a parody. That's fair-use)

@Vanit: Am I attacking you? No. I'm using words that make it easier for the reader to imagine himself as the one partaking in the actions.

All right, I accept that theft is legal as long as you claim you were doing it for research.

The rest of your post is just regurgitating what you've already said and isn't really coherent.



Now you're dancing on the hilarious double standard that thieves in the RM community love to flaunt. This flagrant hypocrisy makes your entire argument fall flat on its face. There is no difference in stealing resources from commercial games and stealing resources from RM games. It's IP theft, plain and simple. Any attempt to justify it is just making excuses in order to justify blatant and unapologetic theft.

Legally? Yes they're the same thing. This topic isn't about the legal side. Its about ethics.

I'm talking about ethics.

You mentioned IP theft? Pretty sure that front is legal. We're talking about how the hobbyist feels about this. Its different in that regard.

Business Ethics can be defined as the critical, structured examination of how people & institutions should behave in the world of commerce. In particular, it involves examining appropriate constraints on the pursuit of self-interest, or (for firms) profits, when the actions of individuals or firms affects others.

Ethics are above what is legal and what is not. If it's illegal, it's unethical. How are you getting to the conclusion that one has nothing to do with the other?

If something is illegal it is unethical? Alright I'm done. That is just insane and not worth replying to.

I disagree with you Zortik. If it's illegal, it's not necessarily unethical.

There are some forms of ethics that allow a person to look above human laws. One may disregard human law because he follows Divine Law (God says, "Steal" I steal. God says "Holocaust" I go make holocaust). Alternatively, depending on one's philosophical beliefs, it might actually be -unethical- to follow human law. Confucianism, for example, it is unethical to turn in a relative no matter what crime they commit. Under a Communist/Marxist philosophy, Intellectual Property might actually be unethical, thus making free use of other people's contents not only ethical, but also the -right- thing to do.

My point is that Ethics is a matter of principles based on community, business, and personal standards. When performing an illegal action because you disagree with it for [x] reason, that does not mean you are acting in an ethical manner if your business and/or community do not believe the same principles you used to make that decision.
So, while a religious zealot could use the excuse to kill people against his or her religion, that does not mean they are acting in an ethical manner. They are however providing an excuse. Will this excuse hold up under the weight of extreme scrutiny? No. Because the actions done did not coincide with the law that was set forth.

My point is this. If what you are doing is illegal, then that means their are laws in place to inform you not to follow that course of action. When you break those laws, you are going against the ethics that had founded the laws in the first place.

Zortik, it's not that you disagree with it at all- It's that there is a different system of law that would govern you for whatever reason. Take people who argue that Abortion is unethical for religious reasons- Abortion involves killing, which violates Divine Law in the 10 commandments- However, in some jurisdictions, abortion is permitted by the government of that area. There are many other reasons why one might argue for or against abortion, but those are not important in this debate.

Likewise, for philosophies, some philosophies (Confucianism included) have some belief that society as-is is corrupted or without virtue... Following that, one might say that the ethics that had founded the laws were not correct or "virtuous".

So basically don't take other peoples stuff at all. That's a given.

But trying to justify the legality of commercial sprite ripping is not possible. People will always rip stuff they like, no matter what.
It's something that can't be controlled. You can try and enforce it, but sprite ripping has been around way to long for anyone to try and stop it now.

Whether it's your personal custom awesome sprite, or Super Mario World's Mushroom sprite.
In the end, you can't really do much other than whip up a flimsy copyright against what they've taken from you.

Ultimately, Sailerius is right. Ripping from commercial games is not different than from indie games except from one point: you can contact the original author(s) more easily in the case of indie games and get an answer, which isn't the case for commercial companies.

So why rips form commercial games are allowed here and not other forms of resource theft? The reason (at least to me, I might be completely wrong) is simply that they're allowed on other RM sites, and by forbidding them, people would go elsewhere to find them, which would harm the site's stats. This is a bit sad, but unless we can provide a huge number of original resources to make up for it, I really doubt they'll be gone anytime soon.

To avoid being an hypocrite, I will admit that I use rips as placeholders and as base templates (I'm unable to sprite from scratch). Sue me.

Ethics is a college level course. It's definitely not something that can be covered in a forum on an RPG Maker website.

And law alone is an entire degrees worth of material let alone international law.

To those first starting their journey into hobbyist video game design, it is certainly good to tell them the proper procedure for searching for and crediting their resources. It's also good to let them know the proper way to contact someone about their resources you plan on using, and why it's a good idea to do so.

If an artist discovers you're using their artwork for your video game and have not received permission to do so, or even fail to credit properly, they can call you out for being an art-thief. This will undoubtedly ruin your credibility and cause negative consequences for your game.

This is a prime reason why you should credit resources and ask for permission if it isn't stated.

It's also why big game company graphic rips are typically deemed okay for use by hobbyist game makers. It's understood that you do not own this work. Rather you are imitating something you like, which can be considered flattering. It's why some Manga-Ka allow doujinshis too, which can sometimes result in profit outside the original creator.

If a company dislikes your use of their resources, you will be notified. If a small game company finds out, they will shut down your work. In court, you will likely to be found guilty if you do not heed their notices to stop.

People and society have a way of dishing out their own brand of justice.

Throwing law into this system would cause it to be stifled and destroyed. By forcing people to stop using rips, and go through filling out some sort of form or application to use other people's graphics you are stifling the creativity of the users.

You can chew over theory for hours, but the reality is if you use something that doesn't belong to you and don't credit and find/receive permission for that work, you will either receive a C&D or you will be slandered for your actions, which will put an end to all your work.

People usually find out.

In the end, the hobbyists win, and for a good reason. They aren't profiting from their work. The second they start profiting, they will find themselves in hot water. If they aren't claiming your work as their own, they aren't hurting you unless it can be directly linked to reducing your customer base. This may come from using your work in a fashion that would shed negative light on it, or by duplicating your work and reducing your sales. In the end, though, the use of your work may even result in positive attention for your talent.

Ethical or not, legal or not, this is the system that does the least harm. If you are the victim of resource theft, it isn't difficult to find justice in this system. Being an art thief is as bad as striking an elderly woman in many communities. Tracking down your resources isn't terribly difficult either.

A fine difference between indie games and large corporation games is their dollar sales and their names. If I stole music from a game RRR's Fat_Panda composed for and I steal music from a game Nubuo Uematsu composed for, who are you going to feel more sympathy for? What about if you knew neither person's name? What about if they received the same paycheck and lived in the same conditions? It's all about WHAT you're stealing. Indie games you're stealing a much much larger percentage of their paycheck, and a much much larger portion of their name. That is why stealing from Indie games is much more taboo than commercial games.

Stealing from a large corporation with graphic rips and music rips, they're probably not gonna miss that profit. Infact, them stomping out your no-profit hard-working hobbyist endeavors is likely to be deemed more unethical than you using their likeness.

That's my take.

You're just repeating the same tired excuses that have been shot down over and over again every time this gets brought up.


It is not deemed okay. A select few people act as if it's okay and others follow suit - it's just like the "law" that says you can download a ROM of a game and it's okay as long as you delete it within 24 hours. It's a falsehood invented to justify shameless theft.


Then it's understood that you're stealing, which is not okay.


There's a distinct difference between imitation and theft. Imitation involves creating something yourself. Theft involves directly stealing.


(emphasis mine)

Now you've hit on the key point. Some allow it. Some authors/artists specifically allow fanmade materials based on their works. However, if someone does not specifically allow derivative works, then that automatically means that the artist is NOT granting permission for their work to be used in that way! Obviously exceptions exist - you could contact the artist and be granted permission. If permission is NOT explicitly given, it means that using the artist's work is directly defying their own wishes and disrespecting their hard work. That is the opposite of flattery.


No, no, no. This is a terrible stance to take. You're saying that it's okay to do anything unethical as long as you're not caught. It's fine to cheat on your spouse as long as they never catch you, right? It's the same thing.

If a company likes people using their resources, they will explicitly say it's okay as some companies do. If they don't, they don't. End of story.


So, what you're saying is, by forcing people to be creative, we're stifling creativity?


So you agree that using resources that don't belong to you without permission is justification for shutting down your work. It seems that there's a lot of support in this thread for this idea. Perhaps it's one worth considering here.


How does that follow at all from anything else you've said?


Probably not, but it's still disrespecting your work and your rights as the creator. Or don't you think that an artist deserves the right to decide how their work gets used?


No, the system that does the least harm is the one in which theft is not condones.


Probably Nobuo Uematsu considering he probably put a lot more time, effort, and money into his music. I feel sympathy for both of them for being ripped off.


None of that matters. Theft is theft regardless of who you're stealing from or how much money they make.


Why does it matter? It's okay to steal as long as you're only stealing X% revenue? What's the cutoff? How much money are you allowed to steal before it becomes theft?


The only reason it's "more taboo" is because more often than not, you're stealing from people in the same community who are going to call you out on it. Thieves don't care where their resources come from. They only care about covering their asses. This is just an excuse.


TIL: Punishing theft is more unethical than theft itself

Wouldn't this be classed as acceptable, using the above statement of Educational purposes, As Kred is using it to learn how to sprite, and is using it as a template?

Basically, if you use work that does not have the express permission to be used, it is not acceptable, in the eyes of law if that item is copywrited, (which is begining to become easier with the introduction of Creative Commons licences and also websites like this, which provide PROOF of your copyright without the huge charge. It just is better to make it yourself or just ensure that you ASK permission, what is wrong with doing that, just a quick is it okay if I use this.... especially in a hobby sense like we are discussing now...
Do you consider the amount of work that people spend on the creations. eg for artists they have to design the character itself, and also design their clothing and colour pallet and that in itself is just for sprites....


Another this to consider is the amount of money people spend on the software they use to make these creations?
I have spent £657.60 on CS5 alone just to edit pictures that I am sent...I don't have a tablet to design anything that is an additional £39.99 and that is on Ebay and dirt cheap!
THEN you add on the cost for RPG Maker...

Then, of course I am working in relation to things on indie game dev sites, they give it to you for free, as long as you don't sell your work...which is basically reselling what they paid alot of money to create! ASK PERMISSION
that is the least you can do isn't it?


Even thought the big corperate companies get tons of revenue...have you considered that it isn't them who make the goods! They HIRE someone! Someone who is just like the developers on this site...they just have more experience behind their back, and are better known but they will suffer in the long run, NOT the companies...so just don't steal! It just is stupid and unjust to EVERYONE....behind a corperate business is real PEOPLE who have to live their lives! You are just stereotyping!

yes, i was.

kudos to udivision!