Mass Effect 3 (Ending Debates), Spoilers inside! Options

[Spirit_Master_X]

Sooo...there is a lot of controversy surrounding the ending of ME3. I won't give out too much detail, but why the controversy? Can people not see that the ending sums up the entire game quite well? I won't lie, at first I was confused but I wasn't angry, and I was willing to forgive Bioware for the ending, if it was rushed...simply because ME3 is the most genius story in a video game to date. It actually felt like impending doom...like...there was absolutely nothing you could...all hope was lost. Imagine billions and billions of gigantic ticks swooping down on our universe and harvesting everything! What the people want, is not a explaination, they want a continuation. Bioware is making up for this with more DLC, but in my opinion, they really don't have to. The angry fans are just whiners, end of story.

[Lato]

Look they couldnt get decide what to do with Mass effect, they never did, each game had a differnt system that pissed me off like crazy. I have ME3 and played it about %70 through and im just gonna sell it cause its crap, Bioware has been doing hit and miss with rpg elements in its games for to long for me.

I have no doubt that the ending pisses ppl off, not nearly as much as the storys setup of the 3 games themselves but whatever. ME is a bunch of hipe, just a smelly TURD on your shelve that needs to go. And when they scammed ppl last sec with that costly DLC the SAME day of release I felt cheated cause I already paid for the game. The rushed it and they can go screw themselves!

[Nicsp]

SPOILER ALERT.

Sooo...there is a lot of controversy surrounding the ending of ME3. I won't give out too much detail, but why the controversy? Can people not see that the ending sums up the entire game quite well? I won't lie, at first I was confused but I wasn't angry, and I was willing to forgive Bioware for the ending, if it was rushed...simply because ME3 is the most genius story in a video game to date. It actually felt like impending doom...like...there was absolutely nothing you could...all hope was lost. Imagine billions and billions of gigantic ticks swooping down on our universe and harvesting everything! What the people want, is not a explaination, they want a continuation. Bioware is making up for this with more DLC, but in my opinion, they really don't have to. The angry fans are just whiners, end of story.

Not exactly. If anything, people don't want a continuation, but they want an ending that actually makes sense. I can understand that you're okay with the ending, but saying the angry fans are just whiners is a bit shot-sighted, I believe. Not only the ending provides NO explanation as to what happened to your squadmates but it also fails insanely at several other things. Among them...
1. How the heck did the squadmates you had with you at the final rush to the Catalyst suddenly end up in the Normandy?
2. How did the Illusive Man even get to The Citadel before Anderson and Shepard?
3. It was stated earlier in the series that if one of the Mass Relays was destroyed, it would cause an explosion equivalent to a supernova, pretty much wiping out any planets close to it.
4. Pretty much ALL of the races were at Earth at the final battle, and after Shepard activates the Catalyst, they're all still there. And since the Mass Relays are destroyed, that basically means that all those trillions of humans, krogan, salarians, asari, quarian, etc. Were left in the Sol System, where the only habitable planet is Earth, which is pretty fucked up at this point and DEFINETLY has no way of supporting all of those people. Long story short, you defeated the reapers, but condemned half the galaxy to starvation on Planet Earth.
5. Why the hell was Joker running away from the battle? Never once in the game was he depicted as a coward who'd run away from a fight, yet, when the Mass Relays blow up, there he is, light speeding his way out of there.

There's A LOT more to this, but I want to go to sleep for today so i'll just stop it here. Bioware PROMISED that they would wrap up the Mass Effect saga on 3 and that every single decision we made throughout the game would influence our ending. And what did they deliver? The same ending, in three different colors. Truth to be told, I think and HOPE that this was, actually, a decision made up not by Bioware, but instead, by their bosses, EA Games, who still wanted to keep things open-ended so that they can milk this franchise even more.

Look they couldnt get decide what to do with Mass effect, they never did, each game had a differnt system that pissed me off like crazy. I have ME3 and played it about %70 through and im just gonna sell it cause its crap, Bioware has been doing hit and miss with rpg elements in its games for to long for me.

I have no doubt that the ending pisses ppl off, not nearly as much as the storys setup of the 3 games themselves but whatever. ME is a bunch of hipe, just a smelly TURD on your shelve that needs to go. And when they scammed ppl last sec with that costly DLC the SAME day of release I felt cheated cause I already paid for the game. The rushed it and they can go screw themselves!

Uhmm, no. I'm sorry, but I can't really take you seriously if you blatantly state out that the Mass Effect series was shit. The Day-1 DLC was a very dick-ish move, I agree, however, I am willing to ignore that much because I think that it was, as I mentioned above, the idea of some higher up from EA Games. The Mass Effect series was, both in gameplay and in narrative, an amazing creation. They didn't really have, as you claim, a different system for each game. All of the three games were very similar, gameplay-wise. In fact, if anything, I dare say they improved the mechanics with each game they released, without changing it enough so people would feel like they were playing a different game. People would grab their controllers and still feel like they were playing Mass Effect, but now they had more things to use than they had in the previous games. But if there was one thing where the Mass Effect series was amazing, it was narrative. The characters are VERY well developed. They all have very well-defined personalities and you watch some of these people grow and stick with you ever since the very first game. I know several people who played the game and were literally crying when, by example, Mordin or Legion died. Heck, I may not have cried rivers as some people claim to but I definetly felt heart broken when Mordin went up that tower to cure the Genophage...And more, he did so while quoting things he said from the second game, back from when you met him...Bioware is VERY good at creating very emotional and cinematic scenes and they definetly achieved to do that very well in all of the games and Mass Effect 3 was no exception...Except for that god damn ending.

[Sparrowsmith]

I never played past the first ME. It wasn't bad, I just wasn't hyped up on it.
I will say this though. If, as a writer, you can't close your narrative, then you have failed. A flawed ending is like saying it was all a dream. It's a cop out. The entire fun, neigh, the purpose of a narrative is to set up events in such a way that the resolution is difficult to foresee. Any kind of media is ruined when the ending is predictable. However, if the ending doesn't make sense, that's even worse. That's when an author has been ambitious, they've promised something which they couldn't deliver. It's an absolute disgrace to pull a half-assed ending after three games.

Imagine Lord of the Rings. If the final scene of the film had been them JUST WALKING INTO MORDOR, completely uncontested, then the entire films/books would have been for nothing. In fact, take ANY trilogy. If the ending is half assed, then it reflects badly on the entire trilogy. Be it a book, game, or film.

So yeah. When I heard about this, I was kind of pissed. Not even a fan of the games and I was annoyed. I have seen stories made on a budget that is barely existent, real independent amateur works, but they have incredible stories. So if you have a massive budget, a team of writers collaborating, and a dedicated fan base counting on you, you are not allowed to half ass the ending.

And that's all I really have to say about that. The games themselves were a good effort to do something new, and on the most part they handled that well, and that's a respectable accomplishment, but half assing the end is just such an amateur mistake. The fact no one stood up and said "guys, this is awful!" speaks volumes for how little they actually care about the fans.

[Spirit_Master_X]

The endings were very different in my opinion. You have three options right? control the reapers, create new DNA by mixing organics and synthetics, and destroying the reapers. You notice how the paragon and renegade choices are their respected colors? blue and red: blue meant controlling the reapers, red meant destroying them...and that was the trick. In reality, the blue side was actually the renegade side, and the red side was actually the paragon side. Shepard was indoctrinated, and it was the reaper's last attempt at controlling his mind. Go to your codex and read up on everything you find about Reaper Indoctrination, its pretty fucked up.

Anyway on to what I was saying.

Controlling the reapers - The theory of indoctrination says you cannot control a reaper if it already controls you. So if you choose to try and control them, you will become fully indoctrinated.

Mixing DNA - The theory of indoctrination says that if you mix organic life with reaper tech/synthetics, you create husks. So if you chose that ending, you would've created an earth full of indoctrinated humans, asari, turians etc. etc.

Destroying the reapers - Is actually the paragon ending.

As far as what happened to your team, I noticed on different endings, different crew members departed the ship after it crashed landed. Not really sure about that, however.

Something that also caught my eye, when Shepard shot Anderson in the stomach, I noticed how Shepard recieved that same wound. He didnt have that wound before, or even immediately after Harbinger's beam...Hmm...

The theory of indoctrination says in the early stages of indoctrination, you will begin to see ghostly appearances, ie: that little kid in the beginning. I noticed how no one else saw him except shepard. That was a way for the reapers to say..."give up hope. kids are dying!" in a sort of way. But Shepard didn't give in. The codex also mentions the person may experience dream sequences or some sort, but Shepard didnt give in. The catalyst in the end resembled that little kid, and if the theory is correct, then in reality, the kid/catalyst didn't really exist...hmm...

As far as the illusive man, remember he left his base before the fight with Kai Lang. He was also indoctrinated, so there is no surprise he got to the citadel before Anderson and Shepard. Besides, Anderson was in London the entire time anyway. They were being held off until Shepard got there.

I don't think people should get angry, it IS the ending Bioware intended, and therefore, people should do some of their own interpretation and wait for the next piece of information instead of out right demanding it.

This post has been edited by Spirit_Master_X: Apr 29 2012, 11:29 AM

[Nicsp]

The endings were very different in my opinion. You have three options right? control the reapers, create new DNA by mixing organics and synthetics, and destroying the reapers. You notice how the paragon and renegade choices are their respected colors? blue and red: blue meant controlling the reapers, red meant destroying them...and that was the trick. In reality, the blue side was actually the renegade side, and the red side was actually the paragon side. Shepard was indoctrinated, and it was the reaper's last attempt at controlling his mind. Go to your codex and read up on everything you find about Reaper Indoctrination, its pretty fucked up.

Anyway on to what I was saying.

Controlling the reapers - The theory of indoctrination says you cannot control a reaper if it already controls you. So if you choose to try and control them, you will become fully indoctrinated.

Mixing DNA - The theory of indoctrination says that if you mix organic life with reaper tech/synthetics, you create husks. So if you chose that ending, you would've created an earth full of indoctrinated humans, asari, turians etc. etc.

Destroying the reapers - Is actually the paragon ending.

As far as what happened to your team, I noticed on different endings, different crew members departed the ship after it crashed landed. Not really sure about that, however.

Something that also caught my eye, when Shepard shot Anderson in the stomach, I noticed how Shepard recieved that same wound. He didnt have that wound before, or even immediately after Harbinger's beam...Hmm...

The theory of indoctrination says in the early stages of indoctrination, you will begin to see ghostly appearances, ie: that little kid in the beginning. I noticed how no one else saw him except shepard. That was a way for the reapers to say..."give up hope. kids are dying!" in a sort of way. But Shepard didn't give in. The codex also mentions the person may experience dream sequences or some sort, but Shepard didnt give in. The catalyst in the end resembled that little kid, and if the theory is correct, then in reality, the kid/catalyst didn't really exist...hmm...

As far as the illusive man, remember he left his base before the fight with Kai Lang. He was also indoctrinated, so there is no surprise he got to the citadel before Anderson and Shepard. Besides, Anderson was in London the entire time anyway. They were being held off until Shepard got there.

I don't think people should get angry, it IS the ending Bioware intended, and therefore, people should do some of their own interpretation and wait for the next piece of information instead of out right demanding it.

You basically just quoted the Indoctrination theory, which has been mentioned quite a lot by a lot of different people and is actually quite famous. Also, Bioware already stated that theory is false. Shepard was not indoctrinated. Also, the partners who leave you see leaving your ship are always the one your Shepard romanced plus Joker. (And EDI, if you choose the Synthesis ending) They are going to release some DLC soon, which is going to be nothing more than, probably, a few cutscenes and dialogue, which is not going to change the ending in any way, instead, it's just going to try and explain it.

[Kaust]

I doubt it, I can't think of any Bioware DLC that was anything other than non-canon quests (but I don't have any ME DLC) and some new items/weps related to them.
That indoctrination theory sounds pretty interesting; says a lot about the ending that the fans had to invent a better one

I dno, I kind of like an 'open' ending if its left out the right amount of detail and you can argue with your friends about the who's and what's. Sounds like this is one of those bad endings though, where they added too many details early on and are met with contradictions later.

[Spirit_Master_X]

Don't know man. I'm kinda interested in how this all plays out though.

[Licentia Per Ori...]

Most people Did not have the IQ required to understand the ending.

Thus the rants and raves.

Angry shouts of simpletons.

[Nicsp]

Most people Did not have the IQ required to understand the ending.

Thus the rants and raves.

Angry shouts of simpletons.

[Sparrowsmith]

Most people Did not have the IQ required to understand the ending.

Thus the rants and raves.

Angry shouts of simpletons.

Rather than trying to get people riled up, would you mind actually explaining the ending then?
I mean, someone with such a high IQ could easily explain a game, no? Even though IQ is actually age dependent and not indicative of a mass audience's ability to comprehend something, much less a game.
Of course, I'm sure you knew that and were testing us 'simpletons'. A genius like yourself would surely not use a term incorrectly.
Despite my sarcasm I am genuinely serious, explain your post or else you are just being insulting and breaking the forum rules.

Oh and Nicsp, try not to use gifs on their own as replies, no matter how condescending a poster may be.

[Licentia Per Ori...]

The ending explained.

In a very well put together video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

If you can't understand it, then your simple. Simple.

People who didn't get it got angry. People tend to get angry when they are left feeling stupid.

[Sparrowsmith]

This was all posted before you.
I'll quote it below.

The endings were very different in my opinion. You have three options right? control the reapers, create new DNA by mixing organics and synthetics, and destroying the reapers. You notice how the paragon and renegade choices are their respected colors? blue and red: blue meant controlling the reapers, red meant destroying them...and that was the trick. In reality, the blue side was actually the renegade side, and the red side was actually the paragon side. Shepard was indoctrinated, and it was the reaper's last attempt at controlling his mind. Go to your codex and read up on everything you find about Reaper Indoctrination, its pretty fucked up.

Anyway on to what I was saying.

Controlling the reapers - The theory of indoctrination says you cannot control a reaper if it already controls you. So if you choose to try and control them, you will become fully indoctrinated.

Mixing DNA - The theory of indoctrination says that if you mix organic life with reaper tech/synthetics, you create husks. So if you chose that ending, you would've created an earth full of indoctrinated humans, asari, turians etc. etc.

Destroying the reapers - Is actually the paragon ending.

As far as what happened to your team, I noticed on different endings, different crew members departed the ship after it crashed landed. Not really sure about that, however.

Something that also caught my eye, when Shepard shot Anderson in the stomach, I noticed how Shepard recieved that same wound. He didnt have that wound before, or even immediately after Harbinger's beam...Hmm...

The theory of indoctrination says in the early stages of indoctrination, you will begin to see ghostly appearances, ie: that little kid in the beginning. I noticed how no one else saw him except shepard. That was a way for the reapers to say..."give up hope. kids are dying!" in a sort of way. But Shepard didn't give in. The codex also mentions the person may experience dream sequences or some sort, but Shepard didnt give in. The catalyst in the end resembled that little kid, and if the theory is correct, then in reality, the kid/catalyst didn't really exist...hmm...

As far as the illusive man, remember he left his base before the fight with Kai Lang. He was also indoctrinated, so there is no surprise he got to the citadel before Anderson and Shepard. Besides, Anderson was in London the entire time anyway. They were being held off until Shepard got there.

I don't think people should get angry, it IS the ending Bioware intended, and therefore, people should do some of their own interpretation and wait for the next piece of information instead of out right demanding it.

You basically just quoted the Indoctrination theory, which has been mentioned quite a lot by a lot of different people and is actually quite famous. Also, Bioware already stated that theory is false. Shepard was not indoctrinated. Also, the partners who leave you see leaving your ship are always the one your Shepard romanced plus Joker. (And EDI, if you choose the Synthesis ending) They are going to release some DLC soon, which is going to be nothing more than, probably, a few cutscenes and dialogue, which is not going to change the ending in any way, instead, it's just going to try and explain it.

I'm glad your incredible IQ helped you to read stuff people had already said, and then copy a video. The indoctrination theory is cited by critics as an incredibly weak response. Above all, it's a FAN theory of events.
It hasn't been confirmed by anyone at bioware, in fact, it's been denied.

If you subscribe to the DotA (death of the author) version of criticizing literature, then this is a perfectly valid theory. However, if you think it's Bioware's decision (which it really is) then no, it's not a valid theory at all.
More importantly, there are STILL plot holes with this. The reason fans are jumping on this is because it kind of explains a half assed ending. More importantly, everyone else in this thread was well aware of the theory already, so your whole simpleton thing is taking credit for something everyone already knows, and is incredibly annoying, and adds nothing to the discussion.

Don't pretend your better than ALL THE FANS because you can watch a video on youtube. I mean, really?

Also, don't forget the whole "Shepard has become a hero by stopping the Reaper invasion" thing. That's not in his mind, that's a message that appears.

Basically, it's one possible theory, but it's not like it's what actually happened.
Every watched Ferris Bueller's day off? Some people theorize the entire film takes place inside Cameron's mind, but that doesn't make it true.

Most importantly though, according to Niscp anyway, Bioware denied the indoctrination theory, and with DC coming out, that would blatantly contradict them if it was true. You'll know whether you were right or not soon enough, but don't assume you're right just yet. If the Indoctrination theory isn't true, then you've basically just made a massive fool of yourself and proven how arrogant you are.

[Licentia Per Ori...]

Bioware denied the indoctrination theory, NO THEY HAVE NOT

If the Indoctrination theory isn't true, Then Nothing in the game makes any sense at all - in particular the last few scenes

As for the PLOT holes, What are they?

please don't say Joker because that is just idiot speak.

This post has been edited by Licentia Per Oris: May 2 2012, 07:08 AM

[Nicsp]

@Sparrowsmith
Oh, all right, sorry about that.

@Licentia
Well, to start with, if Shepard had really been indoctrinated and the Synthesis and Control endings were actually him turning into a husk, why would've Bioware have bothered to show them what happened after his transformation then?

Also, since you were apparently so superior to the point you don't need to actually type, and instead, can explain things with videos, I shall do so as well.

First, a commentary made by a rather popular Youtuber. Where he reads the press release sent from Bioware in regards to the upcoming DLC for the ending.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai_9LTcwYic

Secondly, a short youtube vid that points out a major hole in the Indoctrination Theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVR_kScvMUw

Of course, the main fact that breaks the indoctrination theory is that, for it to be real, Shepard would need to have "woken-up" on Earth. All right then, all good! But then we had this twitter post coming from one of the members in Bioware's team.

http://twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/s...117365311213569

So, in the "gasping for breath" scene in the end of the game, the scene you get if you choose the destruction ending and have enough military force (Over 5000, if i'm not mistaken) shows Shepard gasping for breath IN THE CITADEL. Which disproves the base of the Indoctrination theory, since, as I stated previously, he would need to have woken up on Earth for the theory to be even remotely possible. So please, next time you try to act like a smartass in the internet, at least try and do your homework first, okay?

[Spirit_Master_X]

@Sparrow
Damn lol. I mean...yeah who am I fooling? the video was very convincing! lmao.
But hey, like you said, we'll find out if we were wrong or not. And no, I don't think
I'm better than the fans, but my opinion is among many.

[Lato]

I think its funny how the "fans" eat this #%$^ up! They shove this pricey DLC down ppls throats and ppl smile and ask for more...

This game is NOT worth buying, It was not worth the extra money I had to pay for the DLC on the same day as release which is just stuipd cause why would anyone want to play only part of the game. All these ideas of what the ending meant and what the new DLC is just a bunch of crap from a game that was rushed and not like the others.

The flip flopped from rpg and char story depth to shallow and all action, what a waste of time, I put my ME 2 and 3 on ebay and I hope they sell fast cause I dont ever want to see or hear about it again! Like I said its just a turd sandwhich everyone has taken a bite out of and no one wants to admit it tastes like #$%^

[Kaust]

Yeah DLC bugs me too. Just spend another couple of months on it and release it as part of the game (especially what you were saying about some same day DLC, thats pretty balls(y) marketing). Back in the day they wanted to include something in a game they had to do it before release, and that market wasn't as huge so (well its always been pretty big in my lifetime) they weren't willing to release so many mediocre games. Basically their deliberately releasing incomplete games for more money. And like you said lato we eat it up, we really do. I still remember how incredible an idea it seemed when I first accessed that ps3 network...

[Licentia Per Ori...]

So, in the "gasping for breath" scene in the end of the game, the scene you get if you choose the destruction ending and have enough military force (Over 5000, if i'm not mistaken) shows Shepard gasping for breath IN THE CITADEL. Which disproves the base of the Indoctrination theory, since, as I stated previously, he would need to have woken up on Earth for the theory to be even remotely possible. So please, next time you try to act like a smartass in the internet, at least try and do your homework first, okay?

will look at links a little later.

This is where i disagree with what was stated in the video.

IMO Shep went up to the citadel, only she was hallucinating due to indoctrination while there.

For me it was fairly obvious as the final Scene played sluggish like the dream scenes.

Edit -
ok so there is nothing there that debunks indoctrination.

Yes it sucked that none of the choices you made actually had any real effect on the ending.

But I think the ending was actually very good.

It wasn't Hollywood. So it went over a lot of peoples heads.

If you watch the video i posted you will see.

The only error in it is that the whole final scene was a dream. It was not.
It was a hallucination.




This post has been edited by Licentia Per Oris: May 2 2012, 11:47 AM

[Sparrowsmith]

@Sparrow
Damn lol. I mean...yeah who am I fooling? the video was very convincing! lmao.
But hey, like you said, we'll find out if we were wrong or not. And no, I don't think
I'm better than the fans, but my opinion is among many.

I was talking to this guy down below. Nothing wrong with believing the Indoc theory, but he was a smartass about it. Like he was the fecking messiah of video games come to save us from an otherwise pitifully unfulfilling existence.
At least he's making reasons now, that's an improvement.

So, in the "gasping for breath" scene in the end of the game, the scene you get if you choose the destruction ending and have enough military force (Over 5000, if i'm not mistaken) shows Shepard gasping for breath IN THE CITADEL. Which disproves the base of the Indoctrination theory, since, as I stated previously, he would need to have woken up on Earth for the theory to be even remotely possible. So please, next time you try to act like a smartass in the internet, at least try and do your homework first, okay?

will look at links a little later.

This is where i disagree with what was stated in the video.

IMO Shep went up to the citadel, only she was hallucinating due to indoctrination while there.

For me it was fairly obvious as the final Scene played sluggish like the dream scenes.

Edit -
ok so there is nothing there that debunks indoctrination.

Yes it sucked that none of the choices you made actually had any real effect on the ending.

But I think the ending was actually very good.

It wasn't Hollywood. So it went over a lot of peoples heads.

If you watch the video i posted you will see.

The only error in it is that the whole final scene was a dream. It was not.
It was a hallucination.

I'mma stop you right there with the Hollywood thing.
Fight Club, Usual Suspects, Inside Man, etc, etc
All hollywood films, all have 'twist' endings.
Donnie Darko, Inception
More films which are open to interpretation.
And my personal favorite: Primer.
Primer is an INCREDIBLY low budget time travel piece that is by far the most complicated film I have ever watched.
Here is a diagram of the film's plot line:
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads...rimer-chart.jpg
Try watching that film and seeing if anything goes over your head.

Anyway, my point is that you literally know nothing about anyone on this forum, or their taste in films/games/literature, so you're not in a position to say they are too pedestrian or simple to get the story just because you can.
In the vast majority of cases where you disagree with someone, you each have an equal likelihood of being wrong. Never assume you've won until proven right. Even on the internet.

Moving on, if the ending was all just a hallucination, then why is Shepard passed out in some rubble on the Citadel? Surely it should all be perfectly intact still? No?
Don't get me wrong, I'm tempted to side with indoctrination, I just don't think the claim is fully substantiated. It WOULD fix the plot, but at the cost of continuity.