Puzzle Discussion, What makes a good puzzle? Options

[MEands]

I absolutely love solving puzzles in video games, but when it comes to the "go right and get the key to go left and get the key to go up" then I get frustrated. I feel happy when the answer to a puzzle was clearly sitting in front of you, but you were unable to see it without further examination.

I want to know what everyone thinks makes a good puzzle, and if you're in a really creative mood, then just write out an entire plan for a map's puzzle.

[Kaust]

RPG players definitely don't like puzzles, because they are opposite by essence - a puzzle requires you to think, while a (classical) RPG is merely self-unfolding and quite repetitive, which actually makes thinking counterproductive. In short, you don't play a RPG to challenge your mind, but rather to enjoy the story, graphics and music.

Well I'm sorry you don't like to use your head when you're playing a game.

Wow, such an impressively unnecessary degree of contempt towards a stranger but I'll continue to address your points all the same.

Whether you have proven studies to show that the vast majority of gamers in fact do not like to think, I have no problems forcing players to think about how to solve a puzzle in order to proceed. Naturally, the "role-playing" element of an RPG would be more realistic because there are plenty of challenges in life already.

Essentially saying, "regardless of whether or not you have facts on your side, I'll do what I like with my game". And to a degree you have a right to that; its your intellectual property, you're probably not commercialising it, do what you want right? Wrong, you dont sound like you take the slightest bit of interest in what the player wants. I mean, I like RM because I like RM, but wtf is the point if no-one but me wants to play what I made?

Or I guess, these players you're talking about are just looking to escape the harsh reality and put themselves in the shoes of an invincible hero that only needs to worry about hacking and slashing and throwing crates around like a barbarian.

More unnecessary contempt towards people simply for nothing other than enjoying something different you. Lets move on ('cause don't worry man, its not you, its the rest of the world that dont know shit, much less how to satisfy themselves).

If you're talking about "driving players away" then it has nothing to do with whether puzzles make a game good or not; it's all about making money, and they'll appeal to the masses that are pathetically slow if necessary.

Almost entirely irrelevant, its clear very few users here have commercial aspirations. These guys care about 'driving people away' because that should be a very real concern for every developer.

A complex puzzle isn't about "randomly" hearing what NPC's are saying; maybe you were just unfortunate to have your share of crappy puzzles throughout your gaming career.

Agreed, and I know exactly where you're coming from...but nobody in this thread has said anything like it, arguably this whole thread exists to avoid this possible instance.

But to be a little more contributory (wouldn't want to play hypocrite), yes puzzles do belong in RPGs for a number of reasons; their fun, they break the monotony of dungeon>town>dungeon, and they can provide a challenge. But in regards to this link between roleplaying games and real life:
1)ALL games require some degree of roleplaying. You are always puttting yourself in another's shoes.
2)I have never had to complete a floor puzzle to get through a door irl. Ever.

[Tsukihime]

Wrong, you dont sound like you take the slightest bit of interest in what the player wants. I mean, I like RM because I like RM, but wtf is the point if no-one but me wants to play what I made?

If I am to develop assuming that the player does not want to think, I definitely will not take interest in what the player wants.

To say that RPG players are not the bit interested in having to actually think is essentially ignoring those that actually do wish to challenge themselves mentally. It is an insult to those that don't identify themselves with the supposed majority.

Almost entirely irrelevant, its clear very few users here have commercial aspirations. These guys care about 'driving people away' because that should be a very real concern for every developer.

Yes, cause obviously, RPG players don't look for puzzles.