About acquiring resources Options

[Vanit]

If something is illegal it is unethical? Alright I'm done. That is just insane and not worth replying to.

[Tohsaka]

I disagree with you Zortik. If it's illegal, it's not necessarily unethical.

There are some forms of ethics that allow a person to look above human laws. One may disregard human law because he follows Divine Law (God says, "Steal" I steal. God says "Holocaust" I go make holocaust). Alternatively, depending on one's philosophical beliefs, it might actually be -unethical- to follow human law. Confucianism, for example, it is unethical to turn in a relative no matter what crime they commit. Under a Communist/Marxist philosophy, Intellectual Property might actually be unethical, thus making free use of other people's contents not only ethical, but also the -right- thing to do.

[Zortik]

I disagree with you Zortik. If it's illegal, it's not necessarily unethical.

There are some forms of ethics that allow a person to look above human laws. One may disregard human law because he follows Divine Law (God says, "Steal" I steal. God says "Holocaust" I go make holocaust). Alternatively, depending on one's philosophical beliefs, it might actually be -unethical- to follow human law. Confucianism, for example, it is unethical to turn in a relative no matter what crime they commit. Under a Communist/Marxist philosophy, Intellectual Property might actually be unethical, thus making free use of other people's contents not only ethical, but also the -right- thing to do.

My point is that Ethics is a matter of principles based on community, business, and personal standards. When performing an illegal action because you disagree with it for [x] reason, that does not mean you are acting in an ethical manner if your business and/or community do not believe the same principles you used to make that decision.
So, while a religious zealot could use the excuse to kill people against his or her religion, that does not mean they are acting in an ethical manner. They are however providing an excuse. Will this excuse hold up under the weight of extreme scrutiny? No. Because the actions done did not coincide with the law that was set forth.

My point is this. If what you are doing is illegal, then that means their are laws in place to inform you not to follow that course of action. When you break those laws, you are going against the ethics that had founded the laws in the first place.

[Tohsaka]

Zortik, it's not that you disagree with it at all- It's that there is a different system of law that would govern you for whatever reason. Take people who argue that Abortion is unethical for religious reasons- Abortion involves killing, which violates Divine Law in the 10 commandments- However, in some jurisdictions, abortion is permitted by the government of that area. There are many other reasons why one might argue for or against abortion, but those are not important in this debate.

Likewise, for philosophies, some philosophies (Confucianism included) have some belief that society as-is is corrupted or without virtue... Following that, one might say that the ethics that had founded the laws were not correct or "virtuous".

[ranmaster]

So basically don't take other peoples stuff at all. That's a given.

But trying to justify the legality of commercial sprite ripping is not possible. People will always rip stuff they like, no matter what.
It's something that can't be controlled. You can try and enforce it, but sprite ripping has been around way to long for anyone to try and stop it now.

Whether it's your personal custom awesome sprite, or Super Mario World's Mushroom sprite.
In the end, you can't really do much other than whip up a flimsy copyright against what they've taken from you.

[Kread-EX]

Ultimately, Sailerius is right. Ripping from commercial games is not different than from indie games except from one point: you can contact the original author(s) more easily in the case of indie games and get an answer, which isn't the case for commercial companies.

So why rips form commercial games are allowed here and not other forms of resource theft? The reason (at least to me, I might be completely wrong) is simply that they're allowed on other RM sites, and by forbidding them, people would go elsewhere to find them, which would harm the site's stats. This is a bit sad, but unless we can provide a huge number of original resources to make up for it, I really doubt they'll be gone anytime soon.

To avoid being an hypocrite, I will admit that I use rips as placeholders and as base templates (I'm unable to sprite from scratch). Sue me.

[Titanhex]

Ethics is a college level course. It's definitely not something that can be covered in a forum on an RPG Maker website.

And law alone is an entire degrees worth of material let alone international law.

To those first starting their journey into hobbyist video game design, it is certainly good to tell them the proper procedure for searching for and crediting their resources. It's also good to let them know the proper way to contact someone about their resources you plan on using, and why it's a good idea to do so.

If an artist discovers you're using their artwork for your video game and have not received permission to do so, or even fail to credit properly, they can call you out for being an art-thief. This will undoubtedly ruin your credibility and cause negative consequences for your game.

This is a prime reason why you should credit resources and ask for permission if it isn't stated.

It's also why big game company graphic rips are typically deemed okay for use by hobbyist game makers. It's understood that you do not own this work. Rather you are imitating something you like, which can be considered flattering. It's why some Manga-Ka allow doujinshis too, which can sometimes result in profit outside the original creator.

If a company dislikes your use of their resources, you will be notified. If a small game company finds out, they will shut down your work. In court, you will likely to be found guilty if you do not heed their notices to stop.

People and society have a way of dishing out their own brand of justice.

Throwing law into this system would cause it to be stifled and destroyed. By forcing people to stop using rips, and go through filling out some sort of form or application to use other people's graphics you are stifling the creativity of the users.

You can chew over theory for hours, but the reality is if you use something that doesn't belong to you and don't credit and find/receive permission for that work, you will either receive a C&D or you will be slandered for your actions, which will put an end to all your work.

People usually find out.

In the end, the hobbyists win, and for a good reason. They aren't profiting from their work. The second they start profiting, they will find themselves in hot water. If they aren't claiming your work as their own, they aren't hurting you unless it can be directly linked to reducing your customer base. This may come from using your work in a fashion that would shed negative light on it, or by duplicating your work and reducing your sales. In the end, though, the use of your work may even result in positive attention for your talent.

Ethical or not, legal or not, this is the system that does the least harm. If you are the victim of resource theft, it isn't difficult to find justice in this system. Being an art thief is as bad as striking an elderly woman in many communities. Tracking down your resources isn't terribly difficult either.

A fine difference between indie games and large corporation games is their dollar sales and their names. If I stole music from a game RRR's Fat_Panda composed for and I steal music from a game Nubuo Uematsu composed for, who are you going to feel more sympathy for? What about if you knew neither person's name? What about if they received the same paycheck and lived in the same conditions? It's all about WHAT you're stealing. Indie games you're stealing a much much larger percentage of their paycheck, and a much much larger portion of their name. That is why stealing from Indie games is much more taboo than commercial games.

Stealing from a large corporation with graphic rips and music rips, they're probably not gonna miss that profit. Infact, them stomping out your no-profit hard-working hobbyist endeavors is likely to be deemed more unethical than you using their likeness.

That's my take.

This post has been edited by Titanhex: May 12 2011, 01:37 AM

[Sailerius]

You're just repeating the same tired excuses that have been shot down over and over again every time this gets brought up.

It's also why big game company graphic rips are typically deemed okay for use by hobbyist game makers.

It is not deemed okay. A select few people act as if it's okay and others follow suit - it's just like the "law" that says you can download a ROM of a game and it's okay as long as you delete it within 24 hours. It's a falsehood invented to justify shameless theft.

It's understood that you do not own this work.

Then it's understood that you're stealing, which is not okay.

Rather you are imitating something you like

There's a distinct difference between imitation and theft. Imitation involves creating something yourself. Theft involves directly stealing.

It's why some Manga-Ka allow doujinshis too, which can sometimes result in profit outside the original creator.

(emphasis mine)

Now you've hit on the key point. Some allow it. Some authors/artists specifically allow fanmade materials based on their works. However, if someone does not specifically allow derivative works, then that automatically means that the artist is NOT granting permission for their work to be used in that way! Obviously exceptions exist - you could contact the artist and be granted permission. If permission is NOT explicitly given, it means that using the artist's work is directly defying their own wishes and disrespecting their hard work. That is the opposite of flattery.

If a company dislikes your use of their resources, you will be notified.

No, no, no. This is a terrible stance to take. You're saying that it's okay to do anything unethical as long as you're not caught. It's fine to cheat on your spouse as long as they never catch you, right? It's the same thing.

If a company likes people using their resources, they will explicitly say it's okay as some companies do. If they don't, they don't. End of story.

By forcing people to stop using rips, and go through filling out some sort of form or application to use other people's graphics you are stifling the creativity of the users.

So, what you're saying is, by forcing people to be creative, we're stifling creativity?

You can chew over theory for hours, but the reality is if you use something that doesn't belong to you and don't credit and find/receive permission for that work, you will either receive a C&D or you will be slandered for your actions, which will put an end to all your work.

So you agree that using resources that don't belong to you without permission is justification for shutting down your work. It seems that there's a lot of support in this thread for this idea. Perhaps it's one worth considering here.

In the end, the hobbyists win, and for a good reason. They aren't profiting from their work.

How does that follow at all from anything else you've said?

If they aren't claiming your work as their own, they aren't hurting you unless it can be directly linked to reducing your customer base.

Probably not, but it's still disrespecting your work and your rights as the creator. Or don't you think that an artist deserves the right to decide how their work gets used?

Ethical or not, legal or not, this is the system that does the least harm.

No, the system that does the least harm is the one in which theft is not condones.

If I stole music from a game RRR's Fat_Panda composed for and I steal music from a game Nubuo Uematsu composed for, who are you going to feel more sympathy for?

Probably Nobuo Uematsu considering he probably put a lot more time, effort, and money into his music. I feel sympathy for both of them for being ripped off.

What about if you knew neither person's name? What about if they received the same paycheck and lived in the same conditions?

None of that matters. Theft is theft regardless of who you're stealing from or how much money they make.

It's all about WHAT you're stealing. Indie games you're stealing a much much larger percentage of their paycheck, and a much much larger portion of their name.

Why does it matter? It's okay to steal as long as you're only stealing X% revenue? What's the cutoff? How much money are you allowed to steal before it becomes theft?

That is why stealing from Indie games is much more taboo than commercial games.

The only reason it's "more taboo" is because more often than not, you're stealing from people in the same community who are going to call you out on it. Thieves don't care where their resources come from. They only care about covering their asses. This is just an excuse.

Stealing from a large corporation with graphic rips and music rips, they're probably not gonna miss that profit. Infact, them stomping out your no-profit hard-working hobbyist endeavors is likely to be deemed more unethical than you using their likeness.

TIL: Punishing theft is more unethical than theft itself

[Jonnie19]

To avoid being an hypocrite, I will admit that I use rips as placeholders and as base templates (I'm unable to sprite from scratch). Sue me.

Wouldn't this be classed as acceptable, using the above statement of Educational purposes, As Kred is using it to learn how to sprite, and is using it as a template?

Basically, if you use work that does not have the express permission to be used, it is not acceptable, in the eyes of law if that item is copywrited, (which is begining to become easier with the introduction of Creative Commons licences and also websites like this, which provide PROOF of your copyright without the huge charge. It just is better to make it yourself or just ensure that you ASK permission, what is wrong with doing that, just a quick is it okay if I use this.... especially in a hobby sense like we are discussing now...
Do you consider the amount of work that people spend on the creations. eg for artists they have to design the character itself, and also design their clothing and colour pallet and that in itself is just for sprites....


Another this to consider is the amount of money people spend on the software they use to make these creations?
I have spent £657.60 on CS5 alone just to edit pictures that I am sent...I don't have a tablet to design anything that is an additional £39.99 and that is on Ebay and dirt cheap!
THEN you add on the cost for RPG Maker...

Then, of course I am working in relation to things on indie game dev sites, they give it to you for free, as long as you don't sell your work...which is basically reselling what they paid alot of money to create! ASK PERMISSION
that is the least you can do isn't it?


Even thought the big corperate companies get tons of revenue...have you considered that it isn't them who make the goods! They HIRE someone! Someone who is just like the developers on this site...they just have more experience behind their back, and are better known but they will suffer in the long run, NOT the companies...so just don't steal! It just is stupid and unjust to EVERYONE....behind a corperate business is real PEOPLE who have to live their lives! You are just stereotyping!

This post has been edited by Jonnie19: May 12 2011, 03:15 AM

[Resource Dragon]

EDIT: Now we have a mod here, I want to ask. Why are blatantly ripped sprites/resourced allowed?

I don't know. It's not considered a big deal, I guess.

In my opinion, it's not considered a big deal, because if the creators really cared about people ripping or using the graphics, they'd be shutting places down or placing law suits against people who host them and such.

But that's just my point of view.

That's just a pleasant way of saying that it's okay to do illegal/unethical things as long as you aren't caught.

Just to make sure, I think Resource Dragon was stating his opinion on why it's not a big deal, not his opinion on the matter itself.

yes, i was.

kudos to udivision!

[Rob_Riv]

Resource Dragon, that post doesn't really contribute to the discussion. It's spam.

[Holder]

Also the topic has strayed away from the main point, let's get back to the point of this thread now.

[Klokinator]

Business Ethics can be defined as the critical, structured examination of how people & institutions should behave in the world of commerce. In particular, it involves examining appropriate constraints on the pursuit of self-interest, or (for firms) profits, when the actions of individuals or firms affects others.

Ethics are above what is legal and what is not. If it's illegal, it's unethical. How are you getting to the conclusion that one has nothing to do with the other?

This has little to do with anything but what ^just said. Being illegal doesn't make something unethical. In many Arabian countries, it's illegal for women to show their faces. Therefore according to your statement, women showing their faces is unethical.

Blanket statements ftl.

EDIT: Oops I completely missed page three lol

If something is illegal it is unethical? Alright I'm done. That is just insane and not worth replying to.

I does concur

This post has been edited by Klokinator: May 12 2011, 06:09 PM

[RzrBladeMontage]

So it's been a few days since anyone has posted anything in here so here I go!

I honestly don't see what the big deal is about ripped graphics. We aren't selling them and we're not telling others to sell them either, so even though we're promoting the use of ripped sprites, we're not technically gaining anything from it (money wise). Now if we posted a bunch of them and sold them to the community and we allowed them to sell it to others, I could see where we would have a problem. Rips are found all over the internet and you would think that if the companies cared enough for a sprite made back in the 80's, they would of done something about it by now. I don't see any harm in using ripped graphics at all. If we washed our hands of all the "illegal" materials we have and we released original sprites every now and then, how many people do you think we'd get visiting the forum? If we advertise a collection of resources, ripped or not, to the community, it could bring in increased traffic for us. If we were a super strict site and wouldn't allow anyone to post any ripped resources (or the like) how far do you think we'd get? Sure we'd have the loyal members stay, but what's going to stop other members from leaving?

The new eB sprites however are a different story. If someone uploaded them here to the forum, I could see where things could get a bit sticky. If someone posts a game on the forum with unencrypted files, what should we do then? I could see where someone would post a cheap game with a 5 minute story line just to get the sprites out there.

I honestly don't think SEGA, Capcom, Konami, etc, really care if we use their sprites, just as long as we don't make a monetary profit off of it. Ripped graphics have been around for a long time and if companies started to buckle down on sprite resource sites then they would have thousands upon thousands of unhappy fans - some of who would never buy any of their merchandise again. Think of it this way. Someone's never seen Megaman before in their life and they're on a sprite website looking for pokemon sprites, for example, and they stumble upon megaman sprites and are shocked about how cool they look. They research the game, buy clothing merchandise and maybe even some of the old games. The company profits from it. So by us having these resources, not only are we helping the community by having such sprites, but we could also help the company by possibly showing someone something they like, and then they going off and purchasing material from the company. (It's a long shot, but hey - anything's possible.)

Also, there's this as well:

Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for fair use for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.

So in that statement you see that by using games for any of the reasons stated, is for fair use. RM games are usually non-profit, therefore it means that it's okay to use the sprites because it's not affecting the copyright laws.

And this site is owned by iEntry, as previously stated, but I haven't heard anything about them telling us to stop uploading ripped sprites. iEntry is a big company and a law suit from different companies for us uploading ripped sprites wouldn't make them very happy. I'm sure if they had a problem with it, they would of contacted one of the admins by now.

[Sailerius]

I'll decline to comment on your post, since you've said nothing that hasn't already been shot down multiple times. However...

And this site is owned by iEntry, as previously stated, but I haven't heard anything about them telling us to stop uploading ripped sprites. iEntry is a big company and a law suit from different companies for us uploading ripped sprites wouldn't make them very happy. I'm sure if they had a problem with it, they would of contacted one of the admins by now.

iEntry seems to have a very hands-off attitude toward this site, so I doubt they're even aware of it. I wonder what would happen if someone informed them of the tremendous horde of copyright-infringing materials hosted on their servers, especially when their legal notice and terms of use specify that they reserve the right to immediately terminate their services if you use them to host copyright-infringing material.

Is the right to use stolen graphics something worth jeopardizing this entire site over?

This post has been edited by Sailerius: May 15 2011, 12:33 AM

[Vanit]

I'll decline to comment on your post, since you've said nothing that hasn't already been shot down multiple times. However...

And this site is owned by iEntry, as previously stated, but I haven't heard anything about them telling us to stop uploading ripped sprites. iEntry is a big company and a law suit from different companies for us uploading ripped sprites wouldn't make them very happy. I'm sure if they had a problem with it, they would of contacted one of the admins by now.

iEntry seems to have a very hands-off attitude toward this site, so I doubt they're even aware of it. I wonder what would happen if someone informed them of the tremendous horde of copyright-infringing materials hosted on their servers, especially when their legal notice and terms of use specify that they reserve the right to immediately terminate their services if you use them to host copyright-infringing material.

Is the right to use stolen graphics something worth jeopardizing this entire site over?

The problem is the issue is is not limited to "stolen" sprites. Should support for rm2k3 and prior engines be dropped because there's no official English version? Should we be start scrutinizing "stolen" sound effects as those are overwhelmingly taken from commercial games, but are far less obvious?

There IS a double standard occuring somewhere here and for some reason people have decided to draw an arbritrary line between what is and isn't unethical, because its simply not practical. This is the double standard I've been trying to oppose by backing hobbyists as its simply a fallacy that using commercial sprites is the only issue at hand here.

This post has been edited by Vanit: May 15 2011, 12:46 AM

[Sailerius]

I'll decline to comment on your post, since you've said nothing that hasn't already been shot down multiple times. However...

And this site is owned by iEntry, as previously stated, but I haven't heard anything about them telling us to stop uploading ripped sprites. iEntry is a big company and a law suit from different companies for us uploading ripped sprites wouldn't make them very happy. I'm sure if they had a problem with it, they would of contacted one of the admins by now.

iEntry seems to have a very hands-off attitude toward this site, so I doubt they're even aware of it. I wonder what would happen if someone informed them of the tremendous horde of copyright-infringing materials hosted on their servers, especially when their legal notice and terms of use specify that they reserve the right to immediately terminate their services if you use them to host copyright-infringing material.

Is the right to use stolen graphics something worth jeopardizing this entire site over?

The problem is the issue is is not limited to "stolen" sprites. Should support for rm2k3 and prior engines be dropped because there's no official English version? Should we be start scrutinizing "stolen" sound effects as those are overwhelmingly taken from commercial games, but are far less obvious?

There IS a double standard occuring somewhere here and for some reason people have decided to draw an arbritrary line between what is and isn't unethical, because its simply not practical. This is the double standard I've been trying to oppose by backing hobbyists as its simply a fallacy that using commercial sprites is the only issue at hand here.

No one said that using commercial sprites is the only issue at hand here. Using illegal versions of RM2k3 and other pirated software should also be frowned upon. Stolen resources are stolen, regardless of the source. I agree with you 100% that none of this should be tolerated.

[Vanit]

I'll decline to comment on your post, since you've said nothing that hasn't already been shot down multiple times. However...

And this site is owned by iEntry, as previously stated, but I haven't heard anything about them telling us to stop uploading ripped sprites. iEntry is a big company and a law suit from different companies for us uploading ripped sprites wouldn't make them very happy. I'm sure if they had a problem with it, they would of contacted one of the admins by now.

iEntry seems to have a very hands-off attitude toward this site, so I doubt they're even aware of it. I wonder what would happen if someone informed them of the tremendous horde of copyright-infringing materials hosted on their servers, especially when their legal notice and terms of use specify that they reserve the right to immediately terminate their services if you use them to host copyright-infringing material.

Is the right to use stolen graphics something worth jeopardizing this entire site over?

The problem is the issue is is not limited to "stolen" sprites. Should support for rm2k3 and prior engines be dropped because there's no official English version? Should we be start scrutinizing "stolen" sound effects as those are overwhelmingly taken from commercial games, but are far less obvious?

There IS a double standard occuring somewhere here and for some reason people have decided to draw an arbritrary line between what is and isn't unethical, because its simply not practical. This is the double standard I've been trying to oppose by backing hobbyists as its simply a fallacy that using commercial sprites is the only issue at hand here.

No one said that using commercial sprites is the only issue at hand here. Using illegal versions of RM2k3 and other pirated software should also be frowned upon. Stolen resources are stolen, regardless of the source. I agree with you 100% that none of this should be tolerated.

Well the point I was getting at is the people trying to take the higher ground against hobbyists on graphics in this thread are probably infringing on sound effects, music and engine rights. We can't enforce all of these things because there'd be no website left, we can't enforce some of these things because thats a blatant double standard. People have been suggesting that something should be done when they have no right to suggest this. As I've been saying from the start, its a grey hobbyist area that we can really do nothing about.

[Sailerius]

Well the point I was getting at is the people trying to take the higher ground against hobbyists on graphics in this thread are probably infringing on sound effects, music and engine rights.

Prove it or retract your claim.

We can't enforce all of these things because there'd be no website left

If the website gets shut down due to all the illegal content, there'd be no website left anyways. Or are you saying that this community cannot exist without piracy?

we can't enforce some of these things because thats a blatant double standard.

Such as?

People have been suggesting that something should be done when they have no right to suggest this.

How so?

As I've been saying from the start, its a grey hobbyist area that we can really do nothing about.

You're saying we cannot pass a rule outlawing stolen software or art assets? That seems like not only a simple thing to do, but also common sense. Breaking the law should not have to be explicitly against the rules.

This post has been edited by Sailerius: May 15 2011, 01:34 AM

[Vanit]

I don't even know where to begin... your post, however small it is, is full of contradictions.

You say

If the website gets shut down due to all the illegal content, there'd be no website left anyways. Or are you saying that this community cannot exist without piracy?

Then you say

You're saying we cannot pass a rule outlawing stolen software or art assets? That seems like not only a simple thing to do, but also common sense. Breaking the law should not have to be explicitly against the rules.

So uhhh... make up your mind? If your goal here really is to protect this website from litigation or closure, then you need to prohibit ALL content from commercial games, not just graphics. Do you or do you not think we should forbid the use of commercial content because it is illegal? You can't discriminate in this based on medium, its all or nothing.

Am I sugggesting this community can't survive without turning a blind eye to matters of piracy? Thats exactly what I'm suggesting. Keep in mind that what I'm not suggesting is allowing plagiarism.

This post has been edited by Vanit: May 15 2011, 02:18 AM