Final Fantasy VII: 2D Remake, DEMO OUT! Options

[Brent Murray]

Good god, there's a demo out -- already!?

Fuking eh! I'm gonna go try this out tomorrow, Vanit.

[minimog]

How do the demo in time gameplay goes? And it did not seem to ... I want more!

[Vanit]

I had issues downloading, so I bought a premium RS account just so I could play this.

If anyone else is having download issues, I've mirrored the file. (Vanit, if you don't want me hosting this by all means let me know and I'll remove it.)

Here are my results from my black box testing.

• You can call the menu when the red battle swirl appears, effectively canceling the encounter.
• Sometimes when you press enter while the exp bar is filling up after battle, the bar disappears.
• If you walk onto a teleport event but call the menu before you teleport, when you exit the menu you will be standing on the teleport event. (You can exploit this to bypass teleport events and walk past the allowed boundaries of maps.) I had this same issue with my running system in my own project. To fix this, I changed my 'on hero touch' events to 'collision with hero'

All in all really wonderful work. I was pleasantly surprised to find I could use Braver on myself.

Whew! That was some intense bug fixing. It turns out the root of the problem was a matter of race conditions between the menu, impending battle encounters and teleporting tiles. I fixed the conflict between the menu and impending encounter by putting their calls in the same loop so its impossible for them to conflict. If someone manages to time a menu call just before a battle triggers the impending battle will trigger an interupt that invalidates that call. I was also eventually able to make it nigh impossible to stagger a menu call through a teleport by a combination of making it collision with hero and same level as hero, and upping the responsiveness of my parallel process that freezes the hero in place while they use the menu. However, I still found if i timed it right I could call the menu before I ported and it would appear just after I came out the otherside (unless I disabled the menu for an event, then it waits till after the event). Unfortunately it seems its impossible prevent this as rm2k3 is just too high level when it comes to tiles. I attempted checking the Map ID, X and Y coordinates of the player when the menu is called and then again when it is rendered and the values are the same until its too late. Its not a game breaking bug but its frustrating that its not my fault! There is one way I think I could get around it but its probably overkill; instead of events teleporting the player around directly they could poll the event thats doing the menu/encounter calculations for a teleport request with coordinates, that way it could send an interupt to the menu call. But yeah, overkill I think (although its tempting because then it'd be super robust).

This post has been edited by Vanit: May 13 2011, 01:37 AM

[Rob_Riv]

Brent Murray, rather than posting to say you're going to play the demo, perhaps you should just post after you've played it, with your comments.

Vanit, I noticed that if you left the screen just before a battle started (during the transition screen), the battle didn't happen. Not sure if that's the same or a similar issue to being able to call the menu to cancel a battle.

This post has been edited by Rob_Riv: May 13 2011, 02:25 PM

[Vanit]

Its a similar issue, but I fixed it while I was taking care of the other stuff (fortunately it was one of the easier ones). Thanks for trying it out!

[Kazesui]

I had issues downloading, so I bought a premium RS account just so I could play this.

If anyone else is having download issues, I've mirrored the file. (Vanit, if you don't want me hosting this by all means let me know and I'll remove it.)

Here are my results from my black box testing.

• You can call the menu when the red battle swirl appears, effectively canceling the encounter.
• Sometimes when you press enter while the exp bar is filling up after battle, the bar disappears.
• If you walk onto a teleport event but call the menu before you teleport, when you exit the menu you will be standing on the teleport event. (You can exploit this to bypass teleport events and walk past the allowed boundaries of maps.) I had this same issue with my running system in my own project. To fix this, I changed my 'on hero touch' events to 'collision with hero'

All in all really wonderful work. I was pleasantly surprised to find I could use Braver on myself.

Whew! That was some intense bug fixing. It turns out the root of the problem was a matter of race conditions between the menu, impending battle encounters and teleporting tiles. I fixed the conflict between the menu and impending encounter by putting their calls in the same loop so its impossible for them to conflict. If someone manages to time a menu call just before a battle triggers the impending battle will trigger an interupt that invalidates that call. I was also eventually able to make it nigh impossible to stagger a menu call through a teleport by a combination of making it collision with hero and same level as hero, and upping the responsiveness of my parallel process that freezes the hero in place while they use the menu. However, I still found if i timed it right I could call the menu before I ported and it would appear just after I came out the otherside (unless I disabled the menu for an event, then it waits till after the event). Unfortunately it seems its impossible prevent this as rm2k3 is just too high level when it comes to tiles. I attempted checking the Map ID, X and Y coordinates of the player when the menu is called and then again when it is rendered and the values are the same until its too late. Its not a game breaking bug but its frustrating that its not my fault! There is one way I think I could get around it but its probably overkill; instead of events teleporting the player around directly they could poll the event thats doing the menu/encounter calculations for a teleport request with coordinates, that way it could send an interupt to the menu call. But yeah, overkill I think (although its tempting because then it'd be super robust).

You couldn't just get the "event ID" at the position of the hero as you close the menu window and then trigger the first page of that event (the teleport one) if the ID belongs to a teleport event?

[Vanit]

You couldn't just get the "event ID" at the position of the hero as you close the menu window and then trigger the first page of that event (the teleport one) if the ID belongs to a teleport event?

I wasn't proposing doing away with the on-collision trigger for the teleport, thats not the issue. The issue is stopping the menu from loading while someones trying to teleport. This is tricky because rm2k3 is executing the menu concurrently so fast by the time I detect it shouldn't have loaded its already too late (its already visible). The only way I can stop it is if I can guarantee the interupt (tells the menu not to load) will get there before it reaches the point of no return. I've already done this with the battle system and the menu, such that if the menu is being loading and a battle is impending, it will cancel the menu request before it gets there, it basically looks like this in a parallel process:

>Key Input (Without Wait)
>IF Input is 6
>>Calling Menu SWITCH On
>End IF
>//calculate if there's a random battle (there's a huge section here)
>IF Random Battle
>>Interupt SWITCH On
>>Load Battle
>End IF
>IF Interupt is On
>>Calling Menu SWITCH Off
>>Interupt SWITCH Off
>End IF
>IF Calling Menu is On
>>Load Menu
>>Calling Menu Switch Off
>End IF

I've oversimplified it, but thats the jist of it. It will guarantee that if someone tried to open the menu and a battle occured afterwards, it has no chance to load before the battle (because battles are launched immediately), and the interupt will invalidate the lingering Call Menu request once the battle has finishhed. This is the exact conditions I need for teleporting not be messed up by randomly appearing menu and battle calls too, but the problem is in its current state I've tried to generate the interupts in a separate event, which doesn't work because 99.99% of the time this event is up to the wrong line so the interupt is bypassed.

To get around this instead of teleport events doing the teleporting directly, I can poll the parallel process event like this:

//teleport event trigger on hero touch
//set up my destination coordinates
Map ID = 1
X = 20
Y = 10
Poll Teleport Switch On

Then modify my parallel process to do this:

>Key Input (Without Wait)
>IF Input is 6
>>Calling Menu SWITCH On
>End IF
>IF Poll Teleport is On
>>Return Memorized Position (MapID, X, Y)
>>Interupt Switch On
>>Poll Teleport Switch Off
>End IF
>//calculate if there's a random battle (there's a huge section here), there's a condition here that resets the movement detection when
>//interupted, such that after an interupt they have to move an additional tile to trigger a battle (only happens on map change so can't be exploited
>IF Random Battle
>>Interupt SWITCH On
>>Load Battle
>End IF
>IF Interupt is On
>>Calling Menu SWITCH Off
>>Interupt SWITCH Off
>End IF
>IF Calling Menu is On
>>Load Menu
>>Calling Menu Switch Off
>End IF

Its a pretty elegant solution I think.

This post has been edited by Vanit: May 13 2011, 06:02 AM

[dragonheartman]

For calling the menu on teleport tiles, this probably isn't as elegant, but you could also do some sort of timer that increments every 0.1s, but resets when your hero's x or y coord changes. Then just make a prerequisite for calling the menu that the timer must be at least some value (maybe 3 for 0.3s).

You do definitely lose some responsiveness though. I don't know if it's worthwhile, but an interesting alternative.

Another clever way to avoid battles when you land on a teleport event is to just use a different terrain value for your teleport tiles. Then, you can ensure the player is not standing on that particular terrain ID when you call the random encounter. You might save a few variables that way. (Plus, it's a global solution rather than one that's map-specific.)

This post has been edited by dragonheartman: May 13 2011, 09:39 AM

[Brent Murray]

Brent Murray, rather than posting to say you'reg going to play the demo, perhaps you should just post after you've played it, with your comments.

Done.

Vanit, I played the demo for about 10 min's last night and I was quite impressed with what you had thus far. Everything felt like I was playing the real thing, and reeks of professionalism that almost like Square had a hand in making this game with you; that's how awesome this game this is. I also liked how you had the battle animations down to every single little detail like the actual characters perform in the actual game -- that was a nice touch. Mapping was good, and everything felt like it should be. The menus were a little slow, but I got used to it after awhile and I didn't care after a few call-up's, and the battles flowed very nicely; excellent job, thus far. My only complaint is the walking speed, but since the maps were a bit on the short side, it didn't matter that much.

Can't wait for more! Excellent work, thus far. ^^

It’s been awhile since I’ve played FF7, so it was nice to revisit this game in 2D form, which, frankly, I think is much better.

[Vanit]

For calling the menu on teleport tiles, this probably isn't as elegant, but you could also do some sort of timer that increments every 0.1s, but resets when your hero's x or y coord changes. Then just make a prerequisite for calling the menu that the timer must be at least some value (maybe 3 for 0.3s).

You do definitely lose some responsiveness though. I don't know if it's worthwhile, but an interesting alternative.

Another clever way to avoid battles when you land on a teleport event is to just use a different terrain value for your teleport tiles. Then, you can ensure the player is not standing on that particular terrain ID when you call the random encounter. You might save a few variables that way. (Plus, it's a global solution rather than one that's map-specific.)

I tried the first way already and sadly it still allows them to stagger it through the teleport if they time it right. The terrain ID though! I didn't think of that, I will definitely give that a try! As you say, it'd be a global fix if it worked.

Vanit, I played the demo for about 10 min's last night and I was quite impressed with what you had thus far. Everything felt like I was playing the real thing, and reeks of professionalism that almost like Square had a hand in making this game with you; that's how awesome this game this is. I also liked how you had the battle animations down to every single little detail like the actual characters perform in the actual game -- that was a nice touch. Mapping was good, and everything felt like it should be. The menus were a little slow, but I got used to it after awhile and I didn't care after a few call-up's, and the battles flowed very nicely; excellent job, thus far. My only complaint is the walking speed, but since the maps were a bit on the short side, it didn't matter that much.

Can't wait for more! Excellent work, thus far. ^^

It’s been awhile since I’ve played FF7, so it was nice to revisit this game in 2D form, which, frankly, I think is much better.

I'm glad you liked it! You're not the only one to mention Cloud's walking speed, and I think this is simply because people are used to zooming around really large maps in rpg maker games. I've drawn the maps to scale with Cloud's height and walking speed from the original, if he walked any faster it'd be too fast! The menu is due for an overhaul at some point, after which it should be just as responsive as the menu in the battle system (before my next demo release hopefully).

[Thiamor]

I've played this, but I saw it firstly in the locked and moved topic in RMN if I said the name right.

Now, this is great but lagged for me.

One thing I know you'll need is a command that will access a restart of the game when pressing like L+R+Select (Shift can be Select) so it adds more of the original game to this one.

I cannot wait to see summons and cut scenes, It'd be cool if you get an artist and do say, anime based cut scenes.

[Thiamor]

Hello? Anyone out there? Sorry for the double post but it's been a little while with no reply from anyone.... -_-

[amerk]

Tested out the demo. I'm guessing it's very short, because both times when I played and you joined up with the others (where Barret first tells you he doesn't trust you), when I attempted to follow the others to the next screen, it wouldn't let me (although there is a red arrow indicator as if I should). Is that as far as the demo currently goes?

Anyways, pretty solid game, so far. One thing to note, I don't think it's a necessity to copy the dialogue word for word, but perhaps that is what everybody prefers. I agree, the walking speed could be increased. I thought it was funny that when you follow Barret after the train, Barret just walks past the guards as they are coming for you. I know it was that way in the PS game, but seeing it here in 2D, just seemed more obvious.

Overall, it really captures the spirit of FFVII. Until such a time as a real remake comes about (as if), this could very well satisfy the appetite.

[Thiamor]

Hell I'm one of the many FF fans who would love it to be actual dialog. Word for word. It defeats the purpose if he doesn't, then it isn't a good remake to me. It brings out the most of the nostalgic factors of the game if it is an exact remake, and it adds it even more being in the old, classic style of 2D.

[Vanit]

Hey Thiamor! I've been swamped with assignments at uni the last few days so I've been keeping a low profile (or trying to). I saw your post originally but I forgot about it as I worked. I appreciate you took your time to track down this thread and tell me your thoughts and I wish I was able to have got back to you sooner!

About the restart, I could potentially do something like that, I'll probably make it L+R+a number so its harder to do by accident though. Fortunately I can embed something like this in the event thats incrementing my clock so it should be without incident. This is low priority though as you can do this already by pressing F12.

I won't be doing anime cut scenes. My intent is to make this game feel like if Square released FF7 on snes and not PSX/PC, and I think going with anime cutscenes would pull people out of that. I'll be remaking the cutscenes all in the bird's eye perspective, but I will be cheating a bit with the picture functions so I can zoom and the like. I'm working on the intro right now and I think you guys are going to love it - it will be hauntingly familiar, as it'll be following the cues from the original with every detail preserved, but in a different perspective!

Lastly, when exactly did the lag occur? There are some optimizations I've yet to make in the battle system. Was it anything to do with when the damage numbers popped up?

@amerk: I really should've put a sign there! Thats where the demo ends for now I'm afraid. I'm still on the fence about if I should preserve the grammatical errors in the dialogue - people who don't remember them or didn't play the original will be taken out of the game because of glaring grammatical errors, but similarly people might find it even more nostalgic if the errors are there too. A few people have mentioned the errors now and I'm starting to think fixing them is the lesser evil. Alternatively I will provide an option to term them on and off I think.

Also you mentioned the fact that Barret running through the guards making even less sense in 2D. This is very true, and is actually reveals one of the "artistic" goals of this project - to provide a new perspective in a game by seeing it a different way. I'm glad you noticed!

Thanks again for the feedback everyone!

This post has been edited by Vanit: May 24 2011, 09:05 AM

[Amon]

Oh I really wanted to post a reply to this on my main but still banned lol Anyways, not all FF remakes are bad! only 95% really, I thought FF dark cloud wasnt to bad at all. But back to your remake, I LOVE it, you actually made the background envirment of FF7 and I know that takes ALOT of work, you have put some serious time and skill into this so dont stop now no matter what anyone says cause this is the best looking FF remake/fangame ive ever seen, it makes me want to play FF7 again, im not going to of course no time but this does give me that spark of the good old days when there wasnt a better rpg for PS1. This is very impressive but I think that when you make your own game with your skill its gonna be even better.

[Twin Matrix]

^

Totally off-topic, but should you even have a second account if you're banned? Those don't happen without a reason.

Anyhow, I love how this project looks. Excuse me if this has been asked before, but is RTP required for the demo? I haven't got RM2k3 installed anymore.

[Vanit]

Thanks for the support Amon!

And, RTP is not required at all!

[Twin Matrix]

Really? Wow, such a small project filesize. Great. *downloads*

[Vanit]

And here I was thinking it was large! Sadly the complexity of custom systems compounded with some of the shortcomings of rm2k3 means that the current total of pictures the game is using is... 4238 (yeah you read right). The sound effects are also bumping up the filesize quite a bit. I expect by the time I release a sizeable version of the game it'll be well over 200mb - pretty high for an rm2k3 game that isn't using an mp3 soundtrack if you ask me!