Islam, What is it? Options

[BasharTeg6]

I recently read an article that discussed the true motives of Islam and it lead me to become interested in the religion itself. The most I know about Islam is what I've learned from a Comparative Religions course, though I think it was at most a surface-deep discussion.

I've heard Islam described as "the religion of peace and love." However, it seems far more likely that it is a religion of war and subjugation, at least judging by the majority of passages in the Koran and other important Islamic writings.

If there is anyone more informed about the religion or even an adherent here on the forums, I'd be happy to hear your side of the story. As I said, I don't claim to be particularly knowledgeable about Islam, but I would sure love to close that gap.

Please note that I am not asking about the motives of extremists or terrorists. I'm fully aware that there are many people who would use religion as self-justification for selfish and immoral actions. I am merely asking about the faith of Islam itself and what it means to be a Muslim.

It may be more helpful to present Islam as it contrasts to Christianity, which I'm sure the majority of the people on the forum are more familiar with.

[Sparrowsmith]

I recently read an article that discussed the true motives of Islam and it lead me to become interested in the religion itself. The most I know about Islam is what I've learned from a Comparative Religions course, though I think it was at most a surface-deep discussion.

I've heard Islam described as "the religion of peace and love." However, it seems far more likely that it is a religion of war and subjugation, at least judging by the majority of passages in the Koran and other important Islamic writings.

If there is anyone more informed about the religion or even an adherent here on the forums, I'd be happy to hear your side of the story. As I said, I don't claim to be particularly knowledgeable about Islam, but I would sure love to close that gap.

Please note that I am not asking about the motives of extremists or terrorists. I'm fully aware that there are many people who would use religion as self-justification for selfish and immoral actions. I am merely asking about the faith of Islam itself and what it means to be a Muslim.

It may be more helpful to present Islam as it contrasts to Christianity, which I'm sure the majority of the people on the forum are more familiar with.

I've encountered three kinds of Islam:
HATE
LOVE and
SCIENCE

But all three of these groups exist for christianity too.
All religions contain the extremists, the manipulated, and the 'enlightened'.
The extremists start wars
the manipulated fight in the wars
and the 'enlightened' sit on the side lines, secretly supporting the war but without getting their hands bloody themselves.

The war can be a debate, an actual war, or any kind of conflict.
The extremists are just the people who create the conflict. The manipulated are just those who feel they have to fight for their belief even if the conflict contradicts their belief. The enlightened see the contradiction, and so refuse to enter the conflict, but still support their side.

I mean no insult when I say this, even atheists have the same three groups.

The problem with Islam is that the science side is inherently flawed (They actually try to prove it - badly)
Another problem is the tilt that Islam rests on. Christianity generally has more passive 'love' or 'manipulated' that are complacent with believing in a god without being people of faith, but islam has a much higher rating of aggressive 'hate' or 'extremist' that are determined to push their belief forward.

[Philip]

Wow now THIS could be an interesting topic! Anyways, I have researched Islam not incredibly in depth but to the point I at least know what I'm talking about. Just so you understand where I am, I'm a Baptist and of course do not support Islam; however, I will try to teach you what I have learned.

The Quran (sometimes spelt Koran) has several very violent passages in it when it comes to unbelievers:

[Show/Hide] Quotes

"Remember thy lord has inspired the angels with the message. Give firmness to the believers and instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite the fingertips of them." (Quran 8.12 )

"When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."(Quran 47.4 )

"Fighting jihad (and killing kafirs) for Allah is ordained for you. It is in your best interest even if you hate it." (Quran 2:216)

"You who believe! What is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth for jihad for Allah, you cling heavily to the earth?" (Quran 9.38)

"If you will not go forth to fight in the cause of Allah you will be given a painful punishment." (Quran 9.39)

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and Christians for your patrons : they are patrons of each other; but whoso amongst you takes them for patrons, verily, he is of them, and, verily, God guides not an unjust people." (Quran 5:51)

"Kill kafirs wherever you find them." (Quran 9.5)

(kafir means unbeliever just in case you didn't know)

Now its actually quite strange because the Quran seems to contradict itself when it says:

[Show/Hide] Quotes

"...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." (Quran 5:32)

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that hears and knows (all things)." (Quran 8:61)

(now this last quote is quite interesting because most people are fighting the muslims because they[Muslims] attacked them[most countries])

So I'm just giving you some information about the violence and peace part because that is what you asked. If you'd like to know anything else just ask.

This post has been edited by Philip: Dec 2 2010, 02:58 PM

[MagitekElite]

I've been studying it for a while (a bit of a while...).

Qur’�n, and hopefully I don't upset anyone, has a lot of violent verses. The Qur’�nic verses are separated into Sura, with a name and a basic well, I dunno how to explain it, so I'll use "description" to the Sura. There is one Sura about women and its well, not really peaceful. :/

The Qur’�n was written as Muhammad spoke -- basically in a lesser way to describe it -- and when he'd say something, he'd have his people write it down, because he was illiterate. The Qur’�n often contradicts itself with one verse, and then again afterward repeating the verse it contradicted before. You can see the same verse repeated in the Qur’�n but slightly different or the same as well....

@Philip:
Hmm...strange, that verse you listed (Qur’�n� 5:32) seems to be a lot different my Qur’�n�s. Would you mind if I asked where you got it?
My Qur’�n�s translates it as "if you kill a believer, its as if slaying the whole people". And for Qur’�n 8:61, there is a verse that goes on to mention that the ones your spare (women as slaves/sex slaves) would pay a tax for being either non-religious or belonging to another religion.

[BasharTeg6]

But all three of these groups exist for christianity too.
All religions contain the extremists, the manipulated, and the 'enlightened'.
The extremists start wars
the manipulated fight in the wars
and the 'enlightened' sit on the side lines, secretly supporting the war but without getting their hands bloody themselves.

The war can be a debate, an actual war, or any kind of conflict.
The extremists are just the people who create the conflict. The manipulated are just those who feel they have to fight for their belief even if the conflict contradicts their belief. The enlightened see the contradiction, and so refuse to enter the conflict, but still support their side.

I mean no insult when I say this, even atheists have the same three groups.

The problem with Islam is that the science side is inherently flawed (They actually try to prove it - badly)
Another problem is the tilt that Islam rests on. Christianity generally has more passive 'love' or 'manipulated' that are complacent with believing in a god without being people of faith, but islam has a much higher rating of aggressive 'hate' or 'extremist' that are determined to push their belief forward.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that at all (even for atheists.) Considering the way you are presenting this, it seems as if you are saying, "all ideologies are purely agendas perpetuated by pride." In other words, internal debate does not exist because "everyone is supporting the war." But clearly this is untrue. There is constant debate between different Catholic theologians and, I expect, different atheists.

In fact, I think I stand as a good example that not all Catholics support the same exact things. Truth be told, everyone has their own private philosophy and view on life, and sometimes these views come into conflict, whether the two parties have the same overall beliefs or not.

I'm using the example of Catholics because it's what I'm familiar with, so please don't take what I say out of context. There are extremist Catholics who might start "debate wars" or whatever, but I in no way condone their beliefs just because they claim to be Catholic. Neither do I feel the need to fight their battles because we share the same Catholic faith.

@Philip

Wow now THIS could be an interesting topic! Anyways, I have researched Islam not incredibly in depth but to the point I at least know what I'm talking about. Just so you understand where I am, I'm a Baptist and of course do not support Islam; however, I will try to teach you what I have learned.

The Quran (sometimes spelt Koran) has several very violent passages in it when it comes to unbelievers:

[Show/Hide] Quotes

"Remember thy lord has inspired the angels with the message. Give firmness to the believers and instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite the fingertips of them." (Quran 8.12 )

"When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."(Quran 47.4 )

"Fighting jihad (and killing kafirs) for Allah is ordained for you. It is in your best interest even if you hate it." (Quran 2:216)

"You who believe! What is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth for jihad for Allah, you cling heavily to the earth?" (Quran 9.38)

"If you will not go forth to fight in the cause of Allah you will be given a painful punishment." (Quran 9.39)

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and Christians for your patrons : they are patrons of each other; but whoso amongst you takes them for patrons, verily, he is of them, and, verily, God guides not an unjust people." (Quran 5:51)

"Kill kafirs wherever you find them." (Quran 9.5)

(kafir means unbeliever just in case you didn't know)



Now its actually quite strange because the Quran seems to contradict itself when it says:
[Show/Hide] Quotes

"...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." (Quran 5:32)

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that hears and knows (all things)." (Quran 8:61)

(now this last quote is quite interesting because most people are fighting the muslims because they[Muslims] attacked them[most countries])



So I'm just giving you some information about the violence and peace part because that is what you asked. If you'd like to know anything else just ask.

Thanks, this was helpful. Though I suspect you might have a bit of a bias against Islam. I value your opinion, but I think a real defense of Islam would really bring life to this topic. I want to know how a devout Muslim might defend these criticisms.

@MagitekElite

I've been studying it for a while (a bit of a while...).

Qur’�n, and hopefully I don't upset anyone, has a lot of violent verses. The Qur’�nic verses are separated into Sura, with a name and a basic well, I dunno how to explain it, so I'll use "description" to the Sura. There is one Sura about women and its well, not really peaceful. :/

The Qur’�n was written as Muhammad spoke -- basically in a lesser way to describe it -- and when he'd say something, he'd have his people write it down, because he was illiterate. The Qur’�n often contradicts itself with one verse, and then again afterward repeating the verse it contradicted before. You can see the same verse repeated in the Qur’�n but slightly different or the same as well....

Interesting. What I don't understand is if it's so blatantly contradictory, why does anyone believe it? Surely there must be some rational explanations for these contradictions, just as I can rationally explain many perceived contradictions of the Christian bible - which typically end up being caused by mistranslations or undue fundamentalism. I don't buy the reasoning that Muslims lack reason - they are human beings, who by their very nature possess reason.

[MagitekElite]

Muhammad said things to persuaded others to join, all the time. One can think of the Treaty and how he took his own side instead of acting as the "one in charge" as he promised.

The contradictory came because Muhammad would get revelations whenever he needed them, or it seems from the verses of the Ahadith and the Qur’�n. To put it simply as I could describe it and it could become a monster post, Muhammad was a military and political genius, or said to be, and he used his military position and social status to lead others. His contradictory came a lot, even at his death bed. He'd change pieces here and there, to make more join. An example of this, would be about handling the rape of women and how he changed it here and there, but it ultimately lead to stoning.

If that didn't make sense (I'm Dyslexic xD) this is what I meant: Muhammad changed it a lot, to gain more and more followers.

An example of his contradictions again, would be the last words he mentioned before his death in 632.

O People, listen to me in earnest, whorship ALLAH, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to. You know that every Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. YOU ARE ALL EQUAL. NOBODY HAS SUPERIORITY OVER OTHER EXCEPT BY PIETY AND GOOD ACTION.

Interesting.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Muhammad said so much, that he probably forgot about what he said beforehand, or rather, just wanted to change it and then change it back whenever he wanted....?

The above preaches no superiority over other Muslims (doesn't mean for non-muslims) and that they are all equal, yet Muhammad said this before he died:

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and comitted helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to commit adultery.

And lot of people like to claim the Ahadith is faulty, please don't listen to that. As Muhammad himself said:

O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.

There is an explanation, a few. Mistranslation is nearly impossible for Arabic, it is the easy language in the world. Soldiers learn it in a day, and master it in three. It just says what it says

Muhammad wanted his people to follow his word and his lifestyle. Sometimes he'd go a little more in detail in the same verse but in a different part in the Qur’�n to better explain what he meant previous.

For example, if he said in the first verse: "Paint the houses purple and green!"

And he meant "paint the houses purple and green when its the seven month!" he could later go on later in the Qur’�n, to fix what he meant or to go into more detail. Or, he'd go into detail for different situations. Like when it involved war, there is a verse separate for when they are attacked first and then there is the most repeating verses about forcing war on others.

The Qur’�n offers a lot of different ways to go about one thing when something is slightly different...if that makes sense.

(a good example of the Bible, while slightly on it, being mistranslated, is when Paul comes into it. Afterall...gah, nevermind xD)

[Kread-EX]

I'm not a Muslim, nor I have extreme knowledge about it, but there are things so wrong there that I really need to reply.

The contradictory came because Muhammad would get revelations whenever he needed them, or it seems from the verses of the Ahadith and the Qur�€™�n. To put it simply as I could describe it and it could become a monster post, Muhammad was a military and political genius, or said to be, and he used his military position and social status to lead others. His contradictory came a lot, even at his death bed. He'd change pieces here and there, to make more join. An example of this, would be about handling the rape of women and how he changed it here and there, but it ultimately lead to stoning.

First, Muhammad was illiterate (7.157). Without knowledge of how to read or how to write, scribes had to translate on leather pieces or camel bones the revelations he had. However, it is strongly believed by religion historians that for a while, his words were only memorized and not written - which means oral transmissions, which means mistakes and subjectivity.

Additionally, small sou-rates collections composed during Muhammad's life are in the present day missing. Considering that dots at the end of sentences didn't exist in Arabic at that time, only the oral recitation allowed to describe them.
There is no definitive version of the Revelation when Muhammed dies.

He dies in 632 and it is safe to say that numerous of his followers must have known the Koran by heart. However, in 633 starts the battle with the phony prophet Musaylima which results in the death of many of said followers.
It is Abû Bakr who provides the first "full" version of the Koran by asking Zayd ben Thâbit to research all of the pieces and write them down.
The number of sou-rates, their chronological order as well as their content always has been subject to contradictions and divergences.

Koran is as contradictory as the Bible is, and for the same reasons. You're obviously biased, MagitekElite, but you tend to show it too much to be taken seriously.

There is an explanation, a few. Mistranslation is nearly impossible for Arabic, it is the easy language in the world. Soldiers learn it in a day, and master it in three. It just says what it says

Also this. What the hell am I reading? Mistranslation impossible in Arabic? An easy language? The classic Arabic is considered as one of the hardest language in the world, just after traditional Chinese.
For this exact reason, the Koran has been flagged as untranslatable. If, like I said a little earlier, you consider grammatical problems like the absence of punctuation in the old Arabic language, translating the Koran is extremely hard.
The Persian translation written in the 10th century may be the most accurate.

All I said is based on the study of the Pr. Ralph Stehly, an historian of religions.

Interesting. What I don't understand is if it's so blatantly contradictory, why does anyone believe it? Surely there must be some rational explanations for these contradictions, just as I can rationally explain many perceived contradictions of the Christian bible - which typically end up being caused by mistranslations or undue fundamentalism. I don't buy the reasoning that Muslims lack reason - they are human beings, who by their very nature possess reason.

Because the Bible is not contradictory? We already had this debate Bashar and you yourself admitted that taking the Bible literally was foolish. Well, the same goes with the Koran. Mistranslations, missing verses and the "special" interpretation and how-to-read provided by the fundamentalist salafists groups.

That being said, it doesn't change the fact that Muhammad himself (the historical Muhammed) was a warrior, and as such, part of the Koran (the Medina sou-rates in particular) can be quite violent.

[Philip]

Wow this topic is getting a bit heated LOL! That's why I said it was probably going to be a good one

No matter whether you believe Islam or not it doesn't stop you from making very easy observations about it. It actually seems that the more someone is dedicated and knowledgeable in the religion of Islam the more violent they are (i.e. 9-11 attackers, times square bomber, christmas day bomber, and at least 17 other attempted attacks on US soil ONLY that have occured SINCE the 9-11 attacks and not before). It only goes to reason that as stated by Kread-Ex since the religion's founder was a man of war and pretty much hated other religions then the religion would be as well.

Also, I have come to find out that most people that dive into Islam really don't know too much about it and the Arabs are simply taught it by birth.

As for a defense of the religion I have encountered several defenses of Islam in my studies and one such is that some of the more violent passages were written during a time of war now what they either are ignorant of or just flat out neglect to tell you is Muhammad started the war. Another interesting thing from Islam is Sharia law which has a whole lot of interesting ideas about how women should be treated. Google it if you want to read up on it further.


One last thing before I eagerly await the next response to this topic is if anyone has questions about the Bible I can most certainly answer those. I have been to three years of Bible College and my father is the assistant pastor at a church here in Missouri. (Weird right ) I'd suggest starting a new topic though since this one is suppose to be about Islam! Anyways, happy gaming.

[Sparrowsmith]

But all three of these groups exist for christianity too.
All religions contain the extremists, the manipulated, and the 'enlightened'.
The extremists start wars
the manipulated fight in the wars
and the 'enlightened' sit on the side lines, secretly supporting the war but without getting their hands bloody themselves.

The war can be a debate, an actual war, or any kind of conflict.
The extremists are just the people who create the conflict. The manipulated are just those who feel they have to fight for their belief even if the conflict contradicts their belief. The enlightened see the contradiction, and so refuse to enter the conflict, but still support their side.

I mean no insult when I say this, even atheists have the same three groups.

The problem with Islam is that the science side is inherently flawed (They actually try to prove it - badly)
Another problem is the tilt that Islam rests on. Christianity generally has more passive 'love' or 'manipulated' that are complacent with believing in a god without being people of faith, but islam has a much higher rating of aggressive 'hate' or 'extremist' that are determined to push their belief forward.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that at all (even for atheists.) Considering the way you are presenting this, it seems as if you are saying, "all ideologies are purely agendas perpetuated by pride." In other words, internal debate does not exist because "everyone is supporting the war." But clearly this is untrue. There is constant debate between different Catholic theologians and, I expect, different atheists.

In fact, I think I stand as a good example that not all Catholics support the same exact things. Truth be told, everyone has their own private philosophy and view on life, and sometimes these views come into conflict, whether the two parties have the same overall beliefs or not.

I'm using the example of Catholics because it's what I'm familiar with, so please don't take what I say out of context. There are extremist Catholics who might start "debate wars" or whatever, but I in no way condone their beliefs just because they claim to be Catholic. Neither do I feel the need to fight their battles because we share the same Catholic faith.

Well it's about common ground.
Two differing opinionated catholics will unite against a different denomination of christianity, and three christians will unite against an atheist.
Even if the first catholic has a spiritual idea of heaven and the second catholic has a physical one, they will use both alternatives to try and prove that heaven does exist.
Or a pantheist who doesn't believe in any religion or heaven may argue that an atheist is dogmatic (or vice versa)
We all choose a 'greater good' and 'greater evil'.
For Islam, it's a loving religion, until you challenge it. The extremists will flame you, the manipulated will troll you, the enlightened will debate you until you outsmart them, at which point they flame you.

I have argued with muslims before, and this is definitely how I've found things to be. It's not much different from arguing with a pantheist or a christian or an atheist. It's all just about defending the position until outsmarted, and then kicking up trouble.
It's quite petty.
(You'll note that atheist is on that list. I've never disproved a religion, but I can disprove any argument for or against god, I just don't like people trying to make concrete arguments)

[literarygoth]

There's a great deal of ignorance flying about this thread, and a great deal of enlightenment as well.

Furthermore, to state that there are Violent passages in the Koran is as obvious as stating the Sun rises and sets each day.
Guess what, the Bible has violent passages as well (Soddam and Gomorrah ringing any bells?)

The Koran (Qu'ran) contradicts itself.
The Bible contradicts itself - especially from Old to New/Modern Testaments.

As previously stated faith doesn't hinge on words printed on a page. Both the Koran and Bible were written BY MAN/PEOPLE not a divine deity. Therefore, both are full of bias and personal preferences reflecting the authors of their time.

Lots of violent Muslims and Islamics? Then you must be living in an entirely different world.
Every single Muslim person I've ever met (I currently work with a Muslim man) are not much different from others I've met. They're peaceful and respectful of other people's beliefs and have no qualms entering into religious debates - NOT to choke others with their religious views, but to share their views with others and become more educated on other religions.

Let me tell you a story about 9-11.
I remember exactly where I was when I first heard about it. I was in my mum's car on my way to school, we were only a couple blocks from my highschool when it was announced on the radio. Initially the commentators thought it was a joke and were laughing. Once I got into class (Social Studies - ergo known as History - was my first class and we were working on Current Events. Ironic now) I learned that it was no joke. For the following two hours we sat in our class watching the events unfold on a TV taken from the A/V storage and were bombarded with the information and visuals.
Among my classmates was my friend Healah.
When it was announced about halfway through our class that the Taliban(sp?) were responsible for the attack, and were a radical version of Muslims - everyone in the class turned and glared at Healah with animosity - Healah being the only Muslim student in our class. I was the only fucking person that defended her that day, and she left school in tears. Instantly she was branded a Terrorist because she was Muslim.

Not all Muslims or followers of Islam are extremists.
Not all Christians or Catholics are extremists.

There's more than one or two sides to every debate/discussion/war etc.

This post has been edited by literarygoth: Dec 3 2010, 10:35 AM

[amaro57]

Speaking as a muslim, the Quran itself cannot be perfectly translated in anyway. We believe it is Allah's word and only he knows the true meaning. There are numerous people who argue about translations of verses in the Quran, and people may hear different translations of continuous verses (ayat) and see that they contradict each other.

No matter whether you believe Islam or not it doesn't stop you from making very easy observations about it. It actually seems that the more someone is dedicated and knowledgeable in the religion of Islam the more violent they are (i.e. 9-11 attackers, times square bomber, christmas day bomber, and at least 17 other attempted attacks on US soil ONLY that have occured SINCE the 9-11 attacks and not before). It only goes to reason that as stated by Kread-Ex since the religion's founder was a man of war and pretty much hated other religions then the religion would be as well.

And here we go again, Stereotyping.

You obviously don't know what your talking about. Prophet Muhammad has made treaties with his enemy's and have allowed people of other religions to live inside Al-Madinah provided they live in peace. If you researched history, you'll also find that he didn't provoke war unless it was essential (such as taking back goods from Quraish that were originally the muslims). Most of the other wars were provoked by THE enemies and not Muhammad himself.

Also, thank you for saying all that Kread. ^^

[MagitekElite]

@Kread-EX:
I know he was illiterate, I mentioned that xD

Also, Muhammad had "Sahaba" (Using Plural as it would be easier instead of using the Female and Male verses: ṣaḥābiyy & ṣaḥābiyyah.). He spoke and they wrote. He chose these people, after-all. The Sahaba gave their direct contact with Muhammad to Tabi`in, who helped to write what Muhammad told his Sahaba. The Ahadith are important pieces of the Religion.

The Qur'ān was given to Muhammad verbally by Jibrīl (Gabriel) for about twenty (might be twenty-three years) years, up until his death. If such a thing seemed to be a bad thing or a harder way to learn the religion, why do you think Muhammad continued to received and get, verbally mentioned verses? He would have mentioned something about it. So he took from Jibrīl and told his Sahaba.

Wow...I can't believe you just assumed something about me. I'm not biased, you don't even know me. Do not attempt to act as if you do. But let me ask you this. Have you've lived in Isfahan? Did you live in Islamic countries, have Islamic textbooks and the Qur'ān in several translations including one untranslated? I lived a big life around Islamic Countries and around the religion itself. You don't know me, but you jump the gun.

Please do not assume you know me simply because we disagree or that you think, you know what I am and how I feel.

Arabic is an really easy language, quiet easy. Mistranslation is nearly impossible since its an easy language to understand and read. But you can ask Soldiers (I know a few of them) about how "hard" the language is. It can't be so hard when you can learn it in three days. I'm learning it -- waiting for Rosetta stone -- and its really easy so far. And I never said "is impossible" that it is "nearly impossible" considering how easy its been said not only by me, but by countless others.

@literarygoth:
The OT and the New Testament don't contradict each other, the Law of the OT was fulfilled and the New Testament came along. Its not that it contradicts, which I'm not saying it doesn't, but that the OT and the NT are completely different because of the Law was fulfilled.

@Philip:
I don't think I was heated up or anything, I was just answering and then I guess I became a target of some kind simply because of it...

I never meant to offend anyone, I'm sorry if I had. I wasn't trying to...I guess I should just leave the debate, since I only got 1-2 posts in before being basically attacked and labeled.

[Kread-EX]

Also, Muhammad had "Sahaba" (Using Plural as it would be easier instead of using the Female and Male verses: ṣaḥ�biyy & ṣaḥ�biyyah.). He spoke and they wrote. He chose these people, after-all. The Sahaba gave their direct contact with Muhammad to Tabi`in, who helped to write what Muhammad told his Sahaba. The Ahadith are important pieces of the Religion.

That's what I said. Which means there is a part of interpretation from them, especially because at first, the sou-rates were only memorized, and written down later.

The Qur'�n was given to Muhammad verbally by Jibrīl (Gabriel) for about twenty (might be twenty-three years) years, up until his death. If such a thing seemed to be a bad thing or a harder way to learn the religion, why do you think Muhammad continued to received and get, verbally mentioned verses? He would have mentioned something about it. So he took from Jibrīl and told his Sahaba.

I don't really see what your point is. Muhammad transmits the religion to his followers. Are you implying that he should have forseen the problems inherent to translation and conservation centuries later? Problems that exist with ANY religion by the way.

Wow...I can't believe you just assumed something about me. I'm not biased, you don't even know me. Do not attempt to act as if you do.

When you say blatant bullshit like this...

Mistranslation is nearly impossible for Arabic

...or this...

He'd change pieces here and there, to make more join. An example of this, would be about handling the rape of women and how he changed it here and there, but it ultimately lead to stoning.

...things that completely contradict the work of linguists and historians and seems to be here only to bash a religion different that your own, yes, you are showing bias. Or ignorance. I just chose the least of the two. If that's a problem for you, then too bad.

But let me ask you this. Have you've lived in Isfahan? Did you live in Islamic countries, have Islamic textbooks and the Qur'�n in several translations including one untranslated? I lived a big life around Islamic Countries and around the religion itself. You don't know me, but you jump the gun.

I'm passionate about Middle-East in general and study a lot history, including the history of religions. What I said comes from the work of people who dedicated their life and education to the subject.

Please do not assume you know me simply because we disagree or that you think, you know what I am and how I feel.

No, I simply think that it's hard to believe that you really know what you are talking about.

Arabic is an really easy language, quiet easy. Mistranslation is nearly impossible since its an easy language to understand and read. But you can ask Soldiers (I know a few of them) about how "hard" the language is. It can't be so hard when you can learn it in three days. I'm learning it -- waiting for Rosetta stone -- and its really easy so far. And I never said "is impossible" that it is "nearly impossible" considering how easy its been said not only by me, but by countless others.

You are deluding yourself. Arabic contains hundreds of various dialects all derivated from the classic Arabic. It's this classic Arabic that linguists consider that hard and that they need to study for decades.
And yet you say you can learn it in three days...

[Fetz]

I recently read an article that discussed the true motives of Islam and it lead me to become interested in the religion itself. The most I know about Islam is what I've learned from a Comparative Religions course, though I think it was at most a surface-deep discussion.

I've heard Islam described as "the religion of peace and love." However, it seems far more likely that it is a religion of war and subjugation, at least judging by the majority of passages in the Koran and other important Islamic writings.

If there is anyone more informed about the religion or even an adherent here on the forums, I'd be happy to hear your side of the story. As I said, I don't claim to be particularly knowledgeable about Islam, but I would sure love to close that gap.

Please note that I am not asking about the motives of extremists or terrorists. I'm fully aware that there are many people who would use religion as self-justification for selfish and immoral actions. I am merely asking about the faith of Islam itself and what it means to be a Muslim.

It may be more helpful to present Islam as it contrasts to Christianity, which I'm sure the majority of the people on the forum are more familiar with.

Then shall I begin. Your Acquaintance(lol), if you would be so kind, allow me to bypass the reading of predecessing reply-posts to your educative thread, and perhaps I'd do well to only scratch one concept of this infamous or famous religion.

The Arabic word 'Islam' means 'submission', 'acceptance', or 'surrender', and as the name of the religion founded in 7th century by the Arab religious, political, and military leader Muhammad, it connotively expressly implies submission to deity referred to as 'Allah'(the God) in Arabic and therefore by all Muslims likewise.

An Islamic concept that has come much to the notice of non-Muslims in recent times and events, not the least because of the atrocities committed by band of terrorists in the name of Islam(to be more exact, in the name of Allah) in New York and Washington on 11 September 2001 -events which accelerated some dismally unhappy changes in the world - is jihad, a word that means 'struggle' or 'striving', and is glossed by some Muslim authorities as 'struggling to the utmost of one's power and effort to contend with disapproved objects'. Suitably qualified it refers to matters of morality and faith, as an internal matter; left unqualified it is interpreted as struggle against opponents of the faith and the unbeliever(the kufr). Among Shi'as and Sufis a distinction is drawn between the 'greater jihad' and the 'lesser jihad', meaning the former a spiritual struggle, and by the latter, warfare against enemies. This latter sense has the weight of Islamic jurisprudence behind it, relating not just to struggle against apostates and criminals, BUT to those who REFUSE TO SUBMIT to Islam. No mention of jihad can pass without raising the question of Islam in the contemporary world. It should properly seem odd to ask the question at all, for Islam is major world religion, comprising 20 percent of the world's population, and it is as much a 'Western' religion as a religion specific to any other region such as the Middle East, Pakistan or Indonesia, because there are millions of Muslims in Europe and North America, the majority of them natives of the countries in those areas.

The Koran (Qu'ran) contradicts itself.
The Bible contradicts itself - especially from Old to New/Modern Testaments.
.......
As previously stated faith doesn't hinge on words printed on a page. Both the Koran and Bible were written BY MAN/PEOPLE not a divine deity. Therefore, both are full of bias and personal preferences reflecting the authors of their time.
........
Not all Muslims or followers of Islam are extremists.
Not all Christians or Catholics are extremists.

These are incontrovertible indeed. Deny these and the thread will be a flame war. Yeah.. >.<"

This post has been edited by Fetz: Dec 4 2010, 05:21 AM

[literarygoth]

@Fetz

*applause*
Thank you. Well said mate, and couldn't have said it better myself.
You want to go looking for religious extremists - you'd be surprised by how many of them are NOT Muslim nor follow the word of Islam. That being said, to try and bash on a religion simply due to the events of 9-11 and subsequent news media information, is complete ignorance; and blatantly shows your lack of true knowledge of the religion. As I said, I was very good friends with a Muslim girl on the day 9-11 happened, and I was a witness to the media's anti-Muslim/Islam fanaticism that was born that day.

[Fetz]

@Fetz
*applause*
Thank you.

Yw pal~ ^^

..to try and bash on a religion simply due to the events of 9-11 and subsequent news media information, is complete ignorance; and blatantly shows your lack of true knowledge of the religion.

I agree. Uneducated people tends to state the obvious by extreme ignorance, and overcome by media's madness. Enlightenment counts.

Arabic is an really easy language, quiet easy. Mistranslation is nearly impossible since its an easy language to understand and read. But you can ask Soldiers (I know a few of them) about how "hard" the language is. It can't be so hard when you can learn it in three days. I'm learning it -- waiting for Rosetta stone -- and its really easy so far. And I never said "is impossible" that it is "nearly impossible" considering how easy its been said not only by me, but by countless others.

You are deluding yourself. Arabic contains hundreds of various dialects all derivated from the classic Arabic. It's this classic Arabic that linguists consider that hard and that they need to study for decades.
And yet you say you can learn it in three days...

Or perhaps, Kread bro, we are having a rather odd discussion session with someone of top-notch linguistic talents and mastery.

(You'll note that atheist is on that list. I've never disproved a religion, but I can disprove any argument for or against god, I just don't like people trying to make concrete arguments)

I don't know which god deserves a worship. In all religions, too much hypocrisies. I've given up on...nvm

One last thing before I eagerly await the next response to this topic is if anyone has questions about the Bible I can most certainly answer those. I have been to three years of Bible College and my father is the assistant pastor at a church here in Missouri. (Weird right )

You remind me of "*****y"(my old username in this site, lost the password) who was so devoted to...nvm.
________________

Sorry for the off-topic gesturic lines. Now to get to the main topic,..choosing to reply to:

For Islam, it's a loving religion, until you challenge it.

For I am in disagreement with this, I must say the following these. For a set of beliefs and way of life to constitute a religion, there has typically to be an element not just of belief in something supernatural and transcendent, and regarded as sacred, but also a practice associated with this something, taken as a response to it, or obedience to it, or worship of it, or conformity with it. This practice is the expression of the religious commitment, and a chief way of individuating different religious traditions, apart from the doctrines distinctive of each, is by the way their votaries act out their observances. Now would you be so kind to rephrase your position in this matter. Is killing people for the devil or god(I'm using this as an alternative for good and evil)? Does blood have to be shed and life have to be taken for the refusal to accept Islam? Does the diplomacy retains peace, or does refusal of Islam sovereignity in one's life and a country's land brings about chaotic rage? Are we seeing any openings of understandings? Should we blame or should we trust the policies, the politics, the dogma's, the 4 Rightoues Caliphs, the rivalries, the sects, the today's believers, the tradition, the environment, the media, the whatever involved in this situation that you can think of,.OR the god(Allah) itself? How far and how deep "love" is defined and expressed in Islam's context, in Muslim's perspective, in Allah's 'loving' grace?
These are not just for Sparrow, but the rest as well.

This post has been edited by Fetz: Dec 7 2010, 04:14 AM

[Kread-EX]

To answer your question, Fetz, I don't believe that "love" is expressed in any religion.
I already had this debate countless times with Bashar in the case of Christianity, and really, a religious doctrine is just what you choose to make out of it.
Taking the books literally is stupid, because they're full of contradictions (for reasons that I explained above). You just have to take what you want and that's what believers do.
During the middle-age, while Europe was crushed by Christian obscurantism, the Islamic countries were centers of culture and research - we owe them part of our mathematics and medical science.

That's just it really.

[Fetz]

To answer your question, Fetz, I don't believe that "love" is expressed in any religion.
I already had this debate countless times with Bashar in the case of Christianity, and really, a religious doctrine is just what you choose to make out of it.
Taking the books literally is stupid, because they're full of contradictions (for reasons that I explained above). You just have to take what you want and that's what believers do.
During the middle-age, while Europe was crushed by Christian obscurantism, the Islamic countries were centers of culture and research - we owe them part of our mathematics and medical science.

That's just it really.

Then,. It's a sad life. I long to break out of "this cage"!! Ah well pls ignore me. I'm afraid it's time for me to leave the thread
___
To the main topic:
History will always prove the real situation. I believe it so,.or so I once did. I think, you guys should look into passive aspects of history that's related to Islam. I recommend prophecies. Look into it. I believe you guys, especially beshar, will come to comprehend the internal idiocy of pride and some more aspects of this religion. No offense, but deny this and you will deny some hundreds of years of civilisations.
That's it, I'm outta this thread. I should've used the time on this thread to study Ruby and send Kread dumb questions of it rather than hopping into a vain session of attempting to share. For the last, I'm not Muslim, was Christian, I am anti-religion, but I haven't stopped to long for a service to any Lordship of Entity(s) that will/can help me through.

This post has been edited by Fetz: Dec 5 2010, 04:15 AM

[BasharTeg6]

To answer your question, Fetz, I don't believe that "love" is expressed in any religion.
I already had this debate countless times with Bashar in the case of Christianity, and really, a religious doctrine is just what you choose to make out of it.
Taking the books literally is stupid, because they're full of contradictions (for reasons that I explained above). You just have to take what you want and that's what believers do.

It's fine if this is your belief, you are entitled to it, but from my perspective there are no contradictions, only failures to comprehend. This is why I brought up the question in the first place regarding Islam. I want to see these "contradictions" defended by a Muslim, because only then will there be a balanced perspective in this thread.

During the middle-age, while Europe was crushed by Christian obscurantism, the Islamic countries were centers of culture and research - we owe them part of our mathematics and medical science.

We also owe a big part of our science and technology to the Christian church. You make an overstatement when you say Christians "crushed" scientific development. There's a difference between the proper moral guidance of scientific inquiry and a fearful book-burning.

I think that until we get fresh perspective here this thread won't get very far intellectually. And I'd rather not be discussing the pros and cons of Christianity - we already made threads for that. So please don't use this thread as an excuse to attack another religion... ._.

[Kread-EX]

Then,. It's a sad life. I long to break out of "this cage"!! Ah well pls ignore me. I'm afraid it's time for me to leave the thread

I'm not sure to understand what you mean. How is it sad to state that a doctrine is what one makes out of it?
In the case of Islam, that simply means that if one interprets the Koran as a tool to improve his life and the other's life, it will be a religion of love. On the other hand, a group interpreting it as a mean of domination will turn it into a religion of violence.
It is not different than what you said yourself, in the end.

It's fine if this is your belief, you are entitled to it, but from my perspective there are no contradictions, only failures to comprehend. This is why I brought up the question in the first place regarding Islam. I want to see these "contradictions" defended by a Muslim, because only then will there be a balanced perspective in this thread.

In case you didn't notice, the only Muslim that posted in this thread, Amaro, agreed with me.
And currently you are contradicting what you said earlier:

I can rationally explain many perceived contradictions of the Christian bible - which typically end up being caused by mistranslations or undue fundamentalism.

If you read carefully, it's how I explained Islam contradictions - and this explanation is valid for other religions.

We also owe a big part of our science and technology to the Christian church. You make an overstatement when you say Christians "crushed" scientific development. There's a difference between the proper moral guidance of scientific inquiry and a fearful book-burning.

That's false. We owe to the Church in artistic departements, but not science - Middle-age europe was underdevelopped. Although my point was not to bash the Christian Church, but emphasize how Islam used to be a religion of knowledge, as opposed to today's fundamentalism.

I think that until we get fresh perspective here this thread won't get very far intellectually. And I'd rather not be discussing the pros and cons of Christianity - we already made threads for that. So please don't use this thread as an excuse to attack another religion... ._.

Come on Bashar, I'm not attacking your religion. *sigh*
I'm one of the few that actually defended it from Seroken's bullshit. You should know my point, by now.