The First Layer, In-depth Options

[Kaust]

And sorry Kaust, what did we already agree on as the maker?

Well the first time around Kayden had made a poll and VX came out on top (I think that was before you were on board the project), but we've also talked about it in this very thread, I cant remember everything but it was when I was saying VX for layer1 and Ace for layer2 to reinforce the game within game thing (with the less chibi sprites of XP being a bit closer to the 'reality' of layer3).

Anyways (and this isn't aimed at you personally) its yet again going over this very basic stuff that was frustrating me a few pages back (Edit: that sounded naggy, I was just explaining)

Then I'm changing my vote. VXA all the way. Wouldn't want VX crumminess to win on a technicality when VXA is better in nearly every way.

There are plenty of benefits to VX over Ace, but I don't want this to become yet another thread debating the two so I'll just say that sheer number of VX users over Ace could garner a bit more support in the early stages of production.

[MEands]

That is true, VX is quite popular right now.

Is it too early in this project to start designing the level. Perhaps we should have a new thread for level design?

[Kaust]

No (me and Bulma even did a couple of mockups a few pages back). There's really no need for a new thread- as I've said countless times I was hoping this thread would be for level design (for the first layer anyways), thus my admittedly annoying insistence for hard details- so that people would feel comfortable, or at least have some direction, if they wanted to give a crack at something like that.

As it stands we don't really have any direction with a graphical style, so if that makes you feel liberated rather than lost then give it a go. One thing I noticed from my mockup was that we're really only in need of two maps; one for the final dungeon and the other would be the overworld that just needs to look a lot bigger than it really is (if we were to have a town it would be part of the overworld alongside the travelling bit, so that a transfer screen only occurs when entering the dungeon). I think Sparrow might have specified that the dungeon was a castle, I cant really remember, but if so that's a little bit to go off of (the VX rtp really isn't that bad for inside castles and should suffice 'til we have some custom graphics).

[thatbennyguy]

Are we allowed to use the winner of the R3 Mapping competition as our final dungeon xD (just kidding it's probably against the rules)

[bulmabriefs144]

No (me and Bulma even did a couple of mockups a few pages back). There's really no need for a new thread- as I've said countless times I was hoping this thread would be for level design (for the first layer anyways), thus my admittedly annoying insistence for hard details- so that people would feel comfortable, or at least have some direction, if they wanted to give a crack at something like that.

As it stands we don't really have any direction with a graphical style, so if that makes you feel liberated rather than lost then give it a go. One thing I noticed from my mockup was that we're really only in need of two maps; one for the final dungeon and the other would be the overworld that just needs to look a lot bigger than it really is (if we were to have a town it would be part of the overworld alongside the travelling bit, so that a transfer screen only occurs when entering the dungeon). I think Sparrow might have specified that the dungeon was a castle, I cant really remember, but if so that's a little bit to go off of (the VX rtp really isn't that bad for inside castles and should suffice 'til we have some custom graphics).

Period. We have too many threads, and need to lock the inactive ones. Layer 1/2/3, the design pages, the submission pages, but we have like 4 plot pages.

I definitely have a preference for one of two engines 2k3 or VX Ace. Why? Because although VX reg has more users, the out-of-the-box interface is much better. Many of the VX functions require extensive scripting, and there are several things that should be be preincluded as I used then all the time in 2k3. They just weren't there on XP/VX. Unless I knew how to script to add more buttons (both of these engines look like there's empty space where one COULD add buttons, but nobody here or otherwise seems to understand how to do so, so you either script everything or suck it up. I don't like those options). Also, VX Ace fills in the blanks for house building, everything up to and including adding shadows. And, attacks can be coded very easily using prebuilt stuff (a.atk +a.lvl x 2 - b.def for instance is an attack that adds twice the level to attack and then factors in monster defense) making alot of coding just a matter of typing rather than making a custom attack and wasting common events or script (the best past is you still have that option). This sort of automation frees up alot of time that can be used for really cool stuff by not wearing ourselves out scripting code that should already be there. So yea, I'm changing my vote to allow runoffs with the dominant vote of the two (currently VXA).

I still lose by half a point even if it was changed. I hate voting.

I would say let's go along with the vote as stands, if we can switch to something like Ace for the second layer. Unless... we can get one or two last votes to tie or reverse things.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Aug 2 2012, 06:45 PM

[MEands]

I could go with VXAce, but only if we have a lot of people with the program. It would be a bummer to make a bunch of people buy this program just to help with the project.

[Sparrowsmith]

I think that battle system would work a lot better in layer 2.
Let's not forget we're gonna have many layers here. Now there's nothing to stop layer 1 and layer 2 running on the same engine (it actually makes it a lot easier to do this) and having them use the same battle system, but if we are going with different engines and battle systems, then we should have something that interactive for layer 2, and something more 'game like' for layer 1.

That said, we could do the same battle system for both.

I think it is about time we worked on some maps, even if it's just to give us an idea of what we're working with.

Also, MEands, only the people who put the whole thing together will need VX Ace. Sprites, music, dialogue, plot, map design, etc, can all be done without the program if needs be.

[MEands]

But I like putting it together ;_;
haha jk okay that sounds good.

So I was about to write out a detailed description of what the dungeon's puzzle is, including the model that was already made, and was going to give a walkthrough of it, buuuut things happened and my computer screen has a big crack in it so that will have to wait.

But I think the dungeon should be based on choice, mimicing how other MMO's.
When the dungeon begins you have 3 directions, prison, main hall, and library.
Prison: The prison is not essential to the game, but rescuing prisoners gives you rewards, as well as the treasure you loot from the prison guards.
Main Hall: The main hall takes you to Rasquel's main chamber, which is swarmind with enemies. If you take this rout you'd better be super strong, because it's swarming with the strongest enemies.
Library: The library is the longest way in, but it contains lower level enemies and a better way to sneak into the main hall. There is also a staircase leading up to a balcony where you can use the mage to take out the powerful enemies.

[Kaust]

But I think the dungeon should be based on choice, mimicing how other MMO's.
When the dungeon begins you have 3 directions, prison, main hall, and library.
Prison: The prison is not essential to the game, but rescuing prisoners gives you rewards, as well as the treasure you loot from the prison guards.
Main Hall: The main hall takes you to Rasquel's main chamber, which is swarmind with enemies. If you take this rout you'd better be super strong, because it's swarming with the strongest enemies.
Library: The library is the longest way in, but it contains lower level enemies and a better way to sneak into the main hall. There is also a staircase leading up to a balcony where you can use the mage to take out the powerful enemies.

That is pretty damn cool.

But I like putting it together ;_;

We still need people to make and submit maps (even just areas of big maps), its just that one person will make a coherent game out of everything that is submitted (you could even, hypothetically, make something similar to what you would like to see included on a different engine).

[bulmabriefs144]

I could go with VXAce, but only if we have a lot of people with the program. It would be a bummer to make a bunch of people buy this program just to help with the project.

Just tell them once they help, they can also use it for their own games. Also, it doesn't matter which one most people have, it's what works best for the purposes. Run out and pick a copy of the maker, and you'll see (plus once you have it, you pretty much have the license code too, meaning you can reorder it free even if you have to reformat).

If you act now, I'll throw in a second one.

-------------
Also remember, for the battle system, we could have both in place (if you have the same engine, you can also import common events by copying and pasting the database file), but decide to activate one or another by setting up the local events in different ways. There's nothing to prevent the same engine having a totally different battle system.

You guys said probably a low level, and a dive-in approach. This means for the the main entrance, it's not gonna be a matter of strength (well, no technically, it is at the end because you'll probably level 10+ times clearing the screen of minions) but strategy. Direct force won't beat the enemies in the main hall, since you also aren't well enough equipped, so you have to do stuff like break defenses or use elemental weaknesses (not to mention buffing like crazy to lower attack effect).

For the terrain of having them on a balcony taking pot shots at enemies implies either an XAS system, or some sort of terrain status (if terrain is Balcony number, change status to OnBalcony which is physical attacks of both parties miss, else turn it off if not on balcony). The former is more conventional, but the second could be fun too.

[Sparrowsmith]

Well if the dungeon is optional, and the main hall is SUPER tough, then we end up forcing the player to go through the library.
That is to say, we make the main hall a genuine option, but it's EXTRA hard mode, and only for people who really want a challenge and a head start for layer 2 (I.E, people who've played the game before.)

Anyway, the Library...
This gives me a pretty sweet idea for the dungeon design, though it will probably be very laggy (anti lag scripts?) It'll be worth a shot though.
The final chamber is hidden away inside a sphere.
A spherical maze.

The player moves up and down via ladders to different layers of the sphere, searching for the entrance. Certain switches must be turned on, sometimes in unison (the party has to split up). The walls of the maze are primarily made of bookshelves, some of which have books that must be moved to open up other passages.
The goal is to move to the middle top of the maze and activate a kind of elevator which will pick up each party member before finally entering the final chamber.
The lag is optional, because there's two ways we can do this:
-normal mapping.
-parallax maps which restrict movement based on events which change passibility depending on the layer you are on. This allows objects, and the player, to move between layers of the sphere just by clicking a button. This will be hard to event, but I think it'll look pretty damn good.

Thoughts?

[bulmabriefs144]

They don't know that this is the case though. The only information we should give them is that it looks like "that area (the Bonus Dungeon) probably just leads to a dead end." It does, but there's treasure that will useful there. The main hall has a long empty path leading up to a very dangerous room. And perhaps the library LOOKS like a dead end, unless you read all the books and examine everything, and find the secret passage.

Geez, you don't need scripting to do a layering system. I'm happy to submit any code I can separate from my game as tutorial. I had support for up to 7 layers last I checked and no lag. Parallax altering might cause one, but only if you don't do it right. The trick is not to use database passability, but local event passability (as in, switch it from a same level to below or above depending on what layer you are in comparison.

(Multiple Layer thing below. I had to basically ditch every single file to get it to fit)

It isn't perfect, ideally you'd probably be better off using just variables, but this is a good start.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Aug 3 2012, 01:38 PM

Attached File(s)

 MultipleLayers.zip ( 1.91MB ) Number of downloads: 1

 

[MEands]

I really like the circle maze idea, we just have to make sure it doesn't become one of those tedious "press switch, go back, press button, go back" puzzles.

And for the balcon, I was just thinking we could imply that we can hurt the other monsters. Perhaps I'll rethink the balcony.
Balcony: The balcony runs across the main hall, you cannot be harmed by the strong enemies, but watch out for the archers below. They fire arrows up toward the balcony, and if you are hit by one it will trigger a battle sequence. This is a special battle sequence, only ranged attacks will do damage, characters are blocked by the different leveled terrains. (I guess it's kinda like Battle Network) I suppose it's not exactly a balcony, more of an overpass, leading to...idk.

[bulmabriefs144]

Here's a simple status effect.



For some reason it doesn't work on one of my test characters (the hit 0% part, he hits anyway), but it does with the rest. Have enemy archery as a spell, and the effect works. The rest of the enemies should be ground enemies that have basic attacks (strong attacks at close range due to huge ATK score, but basic). I'm not sure this works for VX and VX Ace though, they seem to lump spells and attacks together.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Aug 3 2012, 07:56 PM

[MEands]

If that works in the maker we decide to use that's great.

We need to make sure to make this dungeon really interesting, otherwise players will get mad at it being the first dungeon we go to.

[Sparrowsmith]

That's some nifty layering work there, not what I had in mind, but definitely something we should include.
In fact, that would probably work better than what I had in mind.

[bulmabriefs144]

Thanks. I got the idea from seeing people having these on/off layers for pass-through then experimenting alot. I think it could be simplified further but other than just running on variables, I'm not really sure how.

[Sparrowsmith]

Variables are probably the best way to handle it.

I can think of a way to include Parallax mapping in there too, several ways actually, but we don't know what the Library will look like yet. If it's very open, then this will work as it is. If we want it to be more closed, then we'll need to fill in that empty space with whatever we can.

I have this idea of a revolving book case (you press a switch, it turns 90 degrees) but it takes up four floors, and each book shelf if 90 degrees out from the one above. Like so:

CODE

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    |||||||
    ||

This means that opening one area closes three other areas on each floor.

[MEands]

Wow, that's really cool. Do you have an idea in mind for this dungeon's design, or do we just have ideas flowing right now?

[Sparrowsmith]

Mostly ideas, but the more stuff we suggest, the better idea we can have when we start putting prototypes forward.

There could also be minions within the dungeon who you can battle (very difficult) or retrieve books from to unlock certain areas.