HP & Defense, The redundant parameters Options

[Titanhex]

I've been aware of this for a while. I'm sure that someone out there fully understands the use of these two separate parameters being separate. I for one, have questioned it.

So lets discuss them with this idea in mind:

HP is how much damage it takes before you die. Defense reduces that damage. All this is still dependent on HP. It all equates to keeping you alive. So, couldn't you just raise HP instead of defense? More HP, the more damage you have to take before you die. It's effectively serving the same goal. Defensive Equipment could raise HP instead of defense.

In counter, defense does factor into some more complex equations and algorithms. That's pretty useful in some RPGs. But It feels like a lot of the RPGs our beginners make don't take full advantage of that or are aware of them.

In effect, by changing the formula for damage calculation to be straight HP and not factor in defense, you could effectively use the DEF stat as something else, say a Magic Defense stat or Charisma stat.

[Kaust]

I also think it can look a bit silly to have crazy high health (like thousands) when your other stats look n00by in comparison.
Just looks more professional if your stats look like they have some valid correlation.

[Titanhex]

I've never had a problem with high HP.

It looks nooby, but so does the no level limit and no stat limit scripts when used.

I actually don't mind low stats with sizeably higher HP numbers. It can be effective, especially if used right. It just adds a little differentiation in the way we look at the numbers.

[Vexus]

I prefer more evenly distributed states for characters unless a specific character has a motive for having very high hp but low defense.

[Kaust]

@titan; I agree, if there's a correlation. If its just inexplicably high then I think it looks silly. To follow the previous example, say you have 5000 hp but 10 strength it just seem laughable when checking out a stats page. If you're going to be dishing out say 150 damage either way then there's no harm making strength appear to be 100 and it just gives an impression of consistency, that these numbers weren't just plucked from the sky. I get whatcha mean though.
Anyways I'm unfamiliar with those scripts so I wont say jazz...

But yeah, Vexus you've got a great point. Its always cool when a characters stats reflect their personality. Especially if they force you to alter your play style a bit, makes it a bit more like you're role playing the character, that this is how they would fight.

[Turkwise]

I like Defense. I feel it's a good stat for differentiating characters, especially if used alongside a stat like magic defense. It also adds an important sense of urgency to the process of upgrading gear that I feel HP alone just doesn't bring.

That's not to say it's an absolutely necessary stat. No stat is, if you plan a game properly.

And like you've said, for a beginner, it can often be ignored or replaced with a more interesting stat. It is a rather subtle stat that can be used to great effect, but it's not so easy to work with and can be overlooked by someone who has not gone into great detail planning a combat system.

But that's just the thing isn't it? Planning. Any combat system needs to be carefully thought out, and not just thrown together to move a story along. A defense-less system also needs to be planned and carefully executed....it's not enough to tweak the stats when an enemy seems to hard or easy. A good game will know the math behind every attack, every hit taken, every level gained.

Sorry for the rambling...I'm done now.

[Oceans Dream]

HP is how much total damage you can take. Defense only reduces the physical damage you take. Magic Defense reduces the magical damage you take. Some armor can raise evade too. So in a well thought out game, you'll have to balance the various factors of the armor, not just have the defense + 5000 one. Maybe a dungeon where you have magic casters, you'd rather have the +30 defense armor and 50% resistance to elementals rather than +100 defense armor. Or have other effects beyond it, like boosting your magical damage or protect against statuses and all.

I have seen games where they just had armor raise your HP. Or FFXII where light armor boosts your HP, heavy armor boosts your defense, magic armor boosts your magic defense. Some choice is nice, especially when the choices are good ones. The HP and Defense stats are only really similar when there's nothing else to armor other than "Defense + 25 >> Defense + 35", so basically raising HP or raising defense has the same effect of how much hits you can survive.

[Turkwise]

So this topic encouraged me to go and actually work out the damage formulas for a game I'm (sorta) working on.

Here's what I came up with:

def = Defense of target atk = attack power of attacker

ratio = def/atk (note: already in default Rpg maker formulas)
damage done = atk*(0.5 ^ ratio)

Note: in ruby, exponents are written like this:

damage = atk*(0.5**ratio)

With this simple formula, damage received is a percentage of the maximum attack value, based on defense/attack ratio, with diminishing returns as defense gets higher. Damage will never be higher than the attacker's attack power(easy to change - read below) and it will never be 0 (except at extreme differences in values).

A simple chart of damage possibility would look like this:

0 defense : 100% attack power
defense = 1/2 of attack : ~71% attack power
defense = attack : 50% attack power
defense = 2x attack: 25% attack power
defense = 3x attack: 12.5% attack power
and so on

It's easy to change, to fit a game's combat/equipment system, by slightly altering the formula:

damage done = atk*(0.5 ^ (ratio-1))

With this change, rather than having 100% damage happen at 0 defense, 100% damage is dealt when attack and defense are equal, and it looks more like this:

0 defense : 200% attack power
defense = 1/2 of attack : ~141% attack power
defense = attack : 100% attack power
defense = 1.5x attack: ~71% attack power
defense = 2x attack: 50% attack power
defense = 3x attack: 25% attack power

Further changes to the amount subtracted (or added) to the ratio can be used to fine-tune a system.

With a relatively simple system like this - a fairly quick change to the formulas - defense can be a better survival stat than HP, but only to a point, as defense loses value as you add more. It's very difficult to quantify, as enemies have different attack power, but it can also make differences in character's defense stats quite apparent. It could, potentially, be expressed in-game by using average enemy attack power relative to the character's level to give a percentage estimate, but that would have to be done by an advanced user, not a beginner.

Well that's all for my defense of defense, for now anyway. It's a fun stat to play around with...though I really don't like the default formulas for dealing with it.

[TheBen]

I'm a... heavy Terraria player, so I honor the idea of defense. It's not really realistic to have equipped armor raise your HP, unless you think of a plot explanation or something for it (like "HP is just how long you can last with your armor on").

However, defense is usually a redundant statistic, yes, albeit for the sake of "realism" (but what's realistic about RPG statistics in the first place?).

[Twilight]

If you really need to think about it, put this scenario in mind. Defense is a cumulative value based on what stands between you and your flesh. A piece of armor is really the only thing between you being wounded by a sword or a gunshot wound. DEF exist to lessen the impact and effectiveness of attacks that could otherwise prove to be fatal (Like a bullet proof vest vs an actual bullet).

This post has been edited by Twilight: Feb 4 2012, 01:18 PM

[Rast]

If you really need to think about it, put this scenario in mind. Defense is a cumulative value based on what stands between you and your flesh. A piece of armor is really the only thing between you being wounded by a sword or a gunshot wound. DEF exist to lessen the impact and effectiveness of attacks that could otherwise prove to be fatal (Like a bullet proof vest vs an actual bullet).

I agree with this. It sums it up quite nicely.

Me, I've seen my share of games that have armor boost your HP, and I don't mind it, but it can negatively impact gameplay. There has to be -some- form of defense stat, or everything else is null and your players will naturally seek the armor with the biggest HP boost. As a player, I'm much more likely to take the +1000HP armor to the +700HP +30 STR armor. Because with no defensive stats, that little bit of HP can make a big difference.

If I were ever going to have armor give an HP boost, I'd probably add a set of resistances to balance it. Physical resistances(The typical piercing, bludgeoning and slashing types), magical, etc. Each piece of armor would have a Physical and Magical resistance type, as well as an HP/MP boost.

Alternatively, armor could have a certain protection rating. Damage below that rating would have a chance to be negated or reduced. Damage above that rating would bypass armor altogether. To make this work, however, armor would also need to have a moderate impact on the wearer's stats, or some form of penalty/benefit depending on the armor. Otherwise, this would just turn into another race to equip the most resistant piece of armor.