The First Layer, In-depth Options

[MEands]

Ooh now I understand what you're saying about the episodes thing, I kinda like that. We'll be like Gabe Newell and never release a full game. We should make RRR DLC!
But on a serious note, the episode things sounds good now, we just need to make sure we end it in a way where the player isn't frustrated with a sudden stop, but also isn't satisfied yet with how it was finished.

Stuff we've discussed which I think we need to pin down:
How to tell the story (I still think one of the characters being an avid RPer would help dupe the players into thinking layer 1 is the game).
leveling system.
Characters (personalities, goals, counterparts in layer 2... I really think this should have its own topic, and not the other characters thread.)
???? (I'm just doing these off the top of my head, there's probably more.)

The avid RPer could be cool, I'm all for that. Another thing we could do is have the character's take the in game events a little less seriously than regular characters. A regular player would just assume it's for the purpose of humor and to make the game more fun, but then later they realize that it's actually because the players litterally aren't in any danger. We could amplify this by having the layer 2 people be actually terrified when monsters begin to attack.
The leveling system is that whole thing about the code right? Is there any other way to do it besides a code? Perhaps have the player move a save file over? Would that save their moves and levels?
I put out some ideas in my last post for the characters.

[Sparrowsmith]

Moving a save file works within an engine, but if we want to cross engines, then passwords is the way to go.

We could amplify this by having the layer 2 people be actually terrified when monsters begin to attack.

definitely this.

That's not to say they should be useless.
They know this game, they know it very well. For their first battles (before the programmers give them powers) they could improvise their environment into a weapon.
If they know an enemy is weak to fire damage, then the puzzle is to find a way to start a fire without getting killed.

Really original battles, because it will look awesome.

[bulmabriefs144]

Episodes, kinda mixed feelings. I think the idea would be good to release it in parts (all by same engine). And then have someone skilled with merging games (Sailerius did Vacant Sky, I'd say if anyone knows how to do this well, I'd say him) to put it together as three distinct games with the episode sections still intact.

Three acts, and maybe 3-6 scenes (episodes) for each. These episodes do not need to be long, just as much as we can handle. Episode 1 might cover the backstory of the "main" game and the heroes, episode 2 goes into details of the villain backstory, and episode 3 has the final showdown. These episodes are each split by a few small quests. Episode 2 is possibly a different engine and has stuff from the first as minigame material (a special premade save to the first helps it continue, and passwords transfer stuff) split into small parts concerning each character's story including the last two. The last act concerns the final layer and interaction with the other two.

I think I'll make a Hero Design post, all about the Characters that are real party members.

[MEands]

If they know an enemy is weak to fire damage, then the puzzle is to find a way to start a fire without getting killed.

Really original battles, because it will look awesome.

I love this idea. This will be tons of fun.


Also, yeah, maybe not episodes. But just updates of the game? Maybe we just end the game at a certain point, then later we release a longer version of the game the leaves off right where the player finished the game.

[Sparrowsmith]

My thought behind the episodes deal was that a lot of game projects end because it's ALOT of work to do at once.
Also, a whole game is a lot to work through.

Serials (or episodes) means that the audience can play a short game (maybe an hour long) which we can make quickly. It's easy on them, it's easy on us, and (more importantly) it will gather a fanbase.

Look at the third Dark Knight film. Why are people so hyped about it? because it's the third in a series and EVERYONE has been waiting.
Why do TV series survive from one series to the next? Because they have followers/fans.
Each Final Fantasy does better than the last, because they have a huge fanbase (lets not count the past few).

If we release a good game, then more will play the next, and more will play the next, and MORE will play the next.
By the time we reach the end (we can drag this out as long as we want) we'll have a very healthy fanbase,

Nothing stops us from releasing a 'full' version later, but I like the idea of someone saying "oh, it's only an hour long, I'll give it a spin" and then a few episodes later saying "WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!?!?!!"

maybe I'm overestimating out abilities, but I want us to aim as high as possible. I have so much confidence in this.

[bulmabriefs144]

Well, no actually episodes are good. It means we can do X amount of work, take a break and work on another segment. Then later we can merge all these chapters/episodes/whatever into one game, and make the next big part in the same way. Three layers probably makes three games, but it means we don't have to do everything at once and get overwhelmed.

What would be cool about about using the environment, we could have like a pile of burning twigs nearby (an enemy with no attacks), if that gets attacked, you get burned (<100% hp, damage enemy, heal burning sticks) but if you use a Collect skill, you basically steal and remove the enemy, then equip burning twig weapon.

[MEands]

So should we start writing out this part? It seems like we have a good amount of info to get a rough draft.

[bulmabriefs144]

Better yet, we should make some sort of link to it. I noticed during character design that I mixed up two of the character designs (Jessica was formerly gonna be a monk for instance, and I'm sure a few other details are off their original). If we can upload our outline to some free writing site (it has to have a fixed link so even if we update nothing happens to the link, so that rules out mediafire), I can add it in my signature.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Jul 31 2012, 04:45 PM

[thatbennyguy]

I think we need to consolidate what decisions we've made concerning the content of the game. The way I'd suggest we do this is via a voting system. We'll give a list of options and we'll all vote on which option we like, and whichever one is most popular, sticks. Here's an example of the topics we need closure on:

• VXA vs. VX vs. other makers
• Group-oriented puzzles vs. no puzzles
• Chat boxes vs. no chat boxes
• Starting position: Bar vs. Town vs. Hub City vs. First Dungeon vs. Final Dungeon
• ABS vs. custom battle system vs. TBS vs. other
• side-quests vs. no side-quests
• level cap: 10 vs. 50 vs. 80 vs. other
• choose character class vs. predetermined classes
• complete nonlinear world vs. limited nonlinear world vs. completely linear gameplay
• 0-30min vs. 30min-1hr vs. 1hr-2hrs vs. 2hrs-3hrs vs. 3hrs+
• password vs. no save file continued vs. same maker
• re-entry into layer 1 from layer 2 vs. no layer entry
• 4 characters vs. more characters
• skill tree customization vs. preset skills

If people can just identify what they prefer for each issue, in a structured way, then we can have a general consensus, and it'll be a great leap forward in the decision process.

[MEands]

Bulma, maybe we can make a google docs page for that.

And yeah we could vote on these things. Hm, lets see:


VXA vs. VX vs. other makers: Layer 1 should have VX type graphics, but perhaps we could use XP since it also supports more detailed guys?
Group-oriented puzzles vs. no puzzles: Definitely group-oriented
Chat boxes vs. no chat boxes: I like the chat box idea for layer 1, layer 2 might be regular and perhaps layer 3 could even have voice acting?
Starting position: Bar vs. Town vs. Hub City vs. First Dungeon vs. Final Dungeon: I think machine town was decided.
ABS vs. custom battle system vs. TBS vs. other: Can we just go with a slightly modified version of the RPG maker battle system?
side-quests vs. no side-quests: Well the players are in a hurry, perhaps more sidequests once the next 2 people try the game.
level cap: 10 vs. 50 vs. 80 vs. other: They should be able to advance 5-15 layers from the start of layer one to the end boss. [Not sure about the return yet]
choose character class vs. predetermined classes: Predetermined
complete nonlinear world vs. limited nonlinear world vs. completely linear gameplay: Linear with the illusion of nonlinearity
0-30min vs. 30min-1hr vs. 1hr-2hrs vs. 2hrs-3hrs vs. 3hrs+: This was definitely disagreed on, I like 1hr-2hrs.
password vs. no save file continued vs. same maker: I like using the same maker but everyone else likes password
re-entry into layer 1 from layer 2 vs. no layer entry: Re-entry is necesarry
4 characters vs. more characters: 4 is the max for this MMO
skill tree customization vs. preset skills: Hm, skill trees are a good idea, but I don't know if it would fit.

[bulmabriefs144]

• 2003/VX Ace for the engine (XP has some serious flaws, like in battles if you have no weapons, it pretty much misses. It's also not very customizable, and has too many battle stats) but probably XP characters if someone can do transparency. Also some drawings/anims later mebbe
• Puzzles. And not just group puzzles, but all kinds.
• No chat boxes. Nah, it makes it too obvious that layer 1 is a game.
• Don't care where we start.
• 2003 style side-scroller (custom), with the option to switch to other modes somehow
• Side-quests (after the first time in layer 1)
• Don't care.
• Predetermined classes (but see below)
• Semi-nonlinear world. However, for the most part, the first time around in layer 1 should be largely herding the plot for the characters. Later, it's more open.
• 1hr-2hrs
• The more I think about it, same maker for layer 2 and 3 (different character list though). Possibly a different maker for layer 1 since character data will not be directly transferred. I'm no longer convinced transferring exp/money is a great idea. I think these two parts can largely run independently, and passwords instead should be to activate new switches (for opening new gameplay areas). This also allows us to have skill trees for the layer 1 characters, and possibly a diff system for layer 2 onward for a simpler programming.
• More characters (probably 6)
• Skill tree customization (this works better than a class tree, and allows some sense of custom characters without going crazy).

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Jul 31 2012, 11:14 PM

[Kaust]

VXA vs. VX vs. other makers- We settled this forever ago

Group-oriented puzzles vs. no puzzles- why is there no middleground (individual puzzles)?

Chat boxes vs. no chat boxes- in regards to what Bulma said of course layer 1 is a game, the whole game is a game. What we're trying to make it appear as is that we are the layer 2 characters. I know you've seen .Hack so; what we're trying to make it look like, initially, is we are playing The World, then we think we're playing the layer2 chars, the layer3, etc.
As to whether or not we actually include them I don't mind, we don't seem to be trying to make this layer an mmo anymore which would have been the only reason I would have included it.

Starting position: Bar vs. Town vs. Hub City vs. First Dungeon vs. Final Dungeon- If its to be episodic I think it should be fast paced and story focused as opposed to world building so I vote we start pretty much right outside the final dungeon.

ABS vs. custom battle system vs. TBS vs. other- If we're still trying to make this mmoey I'd say ABS but the reasons that other people gave me before against this were good and I'm no scripter to fix them so whatever others want.

side-quests vs. no side-quests- Again I'd rather this was a story-driven game

level cap: 10 vs. 50 vs. 80 vs. other- other (too low and its obvious that the layer ends, too high and they could transfer uber characters over to sequels, this'll need a little mulling over)

choose character class vs. predetermined classes- choose, we can afford that little bit of customisation surely.

complete nonlinear world vs. limited nonlinear world vs. completely linear gameplay- limited non-linear

0-30min vs. 30min-1hr vs. 1hr-2hrs vs. 2hrs-3hrs vs. 3hrs+ -up to an hour I guess

password vs. no save file continued vs. same maker- password (otherwise we wasted like a month -_-)

re-entry into layer 1 from layer 2 vs. no layer entry - maybe not these layers specifically, but I'd rather we didnt go from layers 1-3-end in a linear fashion

4 characters vs. more characters- however many is necessary to the plot

skill tree customization vs. preset skills- skill trees, not just because their mmoey but because half the games out there these days focus on making characters as customisable as possible.

[thatbennyguy]

I guess I should vote too.

• VXA vs. VX vs. other makers = VXA/VX
• Group-oriented puzzles vs. no puzzles = individual+group puzzles
• Chat boxes vs. no chat boxes = no chat boxes
• Starting position: Bar vs. Town vs. Hub City vs. First Dungeon vs. Final Dungeon = Final Dungeon
• ABS vs. custom battle system vs. TBS vs. other = custom battle system (modified TBS)
• side-quests vs. no side-quests = no side-quests
• level cap: 10 vs. 50 vs. 80 vs. other = 10
• choose character class vs. predetermined classes = predetermined classes
• complete nonlinear world vs. limited nonlinear world vs. completely linear gameplay = linear with illusion of non-linear
• 0-30min vs. 30min-1hr vs. 1hr-2hrs vs. 2hrs-3hrs vs. 3hrs+ = up to 1hr
• password vs. no save file continued vs. same maker = password
• re-entry into layer 1 from layer 2 vs. no layer entry = no re-entry into layer 1, but definitely re-entry into layer 2
• 4 characters vs. more characters = 4 characters
• skill tree customization vs. preset skills = preset skills

The main reason why I chose these options is to keep things simple and short in Layer 1, because that's not the focus of the story. The more we linger in Layer 1, the more our game becomes a cliche RPG and the more the player is likely to quit. If the player doesn't find out it's not your average game by the hour, then they will probably quit within that time.

This post has been edited by thatbennyguy: Aug 1 2012, 05:21 AM

[Sparrowsmith]

• VX
• Group-oriented puzzles but some other puzzles too.
• no chat boxes. All text that we see should be a symbolic representation of what the players see (IE They do have chat boxes, but we don't see that.)
• Starting position:Near the Final Dungeon. I think we agreed on a nearby town?
• Turn taking. In later layers we'll move to ABS or something more elaborate.
• Maybe not side quests, but there should be a few small tasks you can do alongside the dungeon. Nothing long though, after all, our heroes are on short time.
• They should start 30-40 (with variation between them) and finish 5-10 levels higher. This is supposed to be a HARD dungeon, so they progress quickly. I have an idea actually, what if experience is rewarded for tactics, as well as kills? We could use common events that reward the player for intelligent battle moves (if a buffer mage increases the defense of a player drawing aggro, or a making a fire weak enemy EXTRA weak to fire and then using a fire based attack.)
• predetermined character class, but if we could have some kind of assigning system for skills as levels go up (or even a reset system). This means the player can adjust the character's strengths and weaknesses between battles. The only problem here is making the system.
• limited non-linear. We want it to appear non-linear, they just don't have time for it.
• The time really depends on how long it takes for us to do this. I think each installment should be 30 mins to an hour long, with 2-3 installments. However, we shouldn't be arbitrary with this. The installments finish at crucial moments, and those crucial moments are undecided.
• password
• we'll revist layer 1 ONCE after going to layer 2, and that's when all hell breaks loose. From there we will dart between layer 2 and layer 3.
• 4 characters seems like enough, but I'm not against more. More would probably be more appropriate (but it means more players to include in the overall plot).
• skill tree customization (see above)

[bulmabriefs144]

Could we maybe have password only for the layer 1, after the original game is done? That is, it might be cumbersome trying to import story events back and forth between layer 2 and 3. Whereas for layer 1 we can just import a pre-done save file that has the post final boss events, and the password system.

[thatbennyguy]

Here's the results so far:

• Maker: VX(2), XP(1), VXA(1), 2k3(0.5)
• Puzzles: Group+Individual(5), None(0)
• Chat boxes: Yes(1), No(3), Don't care(1)
• Starting position: Town near dungeon(4), don't care(1)
• Battle system: Modified TBS(2.5), ABS(1.5), custom sidescroller(1)
• Side-quests: Yes(3), No(2)
• Level cap: Advance 5-10 lvls(3), don't care(1), don't know(1)
• Classes: predetermined(4), choose(1)
• Linear vs. nonlinear: linear with illusion of non-linearity(5)
• Length of Layer 1: 0-1hr(3), 1-2hrs(2)
• Password: Yes(4), No(1)
• Re-entry: Yes(2), No(1)
• # characters in Layer 1: 4(2), more(1), don't care(2)
• Skills: Skill tree customization(3), preset skills(2)

And sorry Kaust, what did we already agree on as the maker?

[bulmabriefs144]

I think we did.

Just to amend things: I didn't vote against Modified TBS, or password. Put it as Other. Also, you miscounted. That's 2 for VXA, not VX.

Also...

http://rpgmaker.net/tutorials/527/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kuQSdEFE

We could do something like this.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Aug 1 2012, 03:15 PM

[thatbennyguy]

Yeah bulma you weren't the one who voted against passwords, MEands did.

As for maker: Sparrow voted VX(1), I voted VX(0.5) and VXA(0.5), you voted VXA(0.5) and 2k3(0.5), MEands voted VX(0.5) and XP(0.5).

So it's VX(2), VXA(1), 2k3(0.5), XP(0.5) actually.

So like a FF Tactics RPG? That sounds really cool and I'd approve of that (if we can do it well). Also, your YouTube link doesn't work.

[Sparrowsmith]

Making it that tactical might be a little difficult. Turn taking seemed easy enough, what with all the strengths and weaknesses we're gonna put in.

[bulmabriefs144]

Then I'm changing my vote. VXA all the way. Wouldn't want VX crumminess to win on a technicality when VXA is better in nearly every way.

Definitely a custom system. What if we made a sort of XAS/ABS hybrid? Like, you can get attacks in outside battle (except for bosses), and it either outright kills them, stuns them, or begins with initiative and reduced life according to damage dealt. They touch you normally it's battle with no advantage, and if you're facing away from them and they're behind you (this can be done with x/y variables) you get back attacked.

I've actually done this one so I can give out a code for both front/back attack and very simple attack system (just by action key, but it works fairly well). I've also done a more complication targetting system but only for traps, not ranged weapons.

Sorta like Lufia 2, where it stuns/knocks back enemies, but being touched by them can start battles.

Sorta like this.