Plot, Continuing from Ideas. Options

[bulmabriefs144]

Yeah, it would be interesting to have most of the characters not really able to learn spells by level, instead needing either in-game scrolls, or yea, code from the programmers. And then making some of the hacker types have the opposite rule, where in-game scrolls don't work (since their code is odd), but they can learn by level.

We should have some sort of tutorial part where it clones a shop with pictures, and has the party talking about various items (scrolls, special medicines, and unique items that allow a party to escape a dungeon). Ditto for any custom effects, like changing parties or crafting.

[Sparrowsmith]

I was thinking we could have a 'coding' script of some kind, but I have no idea how difficult it would be to make.
Simply put, the 'coders' on the team could be assigned roles. They can create new attacks for other teammates, make items that can be used for escape or teleportation, or necessary puzzle pieces.
Maybe to write the code, they need code fragments that are dropped by enemies, in which case the roles would be a kind of synthesis.

So instead of buying abilities, or earning them, you have to assign your characters to create them, and then learn them. Sort of like scrolls, only you have to make the scrolls first.
I don't know how similar this was to your idea, but I kind of jumped off of that

[Kaust]

Some variant of this http://www.rpgrevolution.com/forums/index....showtopic=54928 perhaps?

Feels like you could take this further than merely skills. The whole game would be coded after all. So weps/armor, possibly even friendly ai/summons. But, admittedly, sometimes it can get confusing when one element is applied to everything.

Could even make hacking a bit like cheat codes; infinite money, infinite mp, that sorta stuff, just hard to decide when it would be best to apply it without removing all complexity from the game.

[MEands]

We could do something along the lines of you playing as the 'coders', it's your job to strategically create attacks that will benefit the game characters. You are in no direct control of them, but your codes show their actions.
Or maybe like megaman, you decide what moves the character has, and then they must battle with those moves.

[thatbennyguy]

The game mechanic of typing codes for various attacks during battle is a difficult concept, but possibly a highly rewarding one. Adaptive tutorials have to be implemented to teach the player to use various codes during battle.

My ideas for teaching the player how to code attacks:

• Blending the tutorial into the game, making it feel like it's not a tutorial at all
• Having the player "do" rather than "read", learning to code attacks by actually performing actions in the game
• We will have to spread out teaching of the mechanics to afford teaching new techniques/spells, etc (players won't understand everything right away)
• Get the player to do each thing once, and if they get stuck, place them on the right track again
• The tutorials will have to be as unobtrusive as possible, adapting to the player's learning abilities
• We can leverage what players already know about coding, such as basic math, functions, loops, if/else statements, etc.

I think it's a good idea that will take a lot of work to implement.

[Sparrowsmith]

If that's too ambitious, we can always have a simple 'crafting' system, that creates items that teach attacks, or creates armor, etc.
The coding is a great idea (I would LOVE to see it in a game) but it seems SO difficult to do. Do we even have and scripters on board who could do that?

[MEands]

Hey I'm reviving this thread because there's no real thread that covers the game as a whole, we seem to have separate sections for stuff.

So I just wanted to point something out that might cause this game to be very interesting. What it seems like is we're enjoying the puzzle aspect of this game, and the way this game flows, there really isn't all that much room for leveling. (Considering most of it takes place in a "real" world where levels don't exist). I was just thinking, what if we officially call this a puzzle game, not a boring "solve this puzzle and go to next room ooh you're smart, but a game like half-life, where the puzzle isn't really a puzzle, it's more of a real world the player is trying to navigate. Now of course layer 1 is going to have puzzle rooms because it's a generic MMO, but once we get to layer 2, we can get cool things going, like navigating the junkyard and hiding in the dark, once the monsters come into layer 2 we could have puzzles that involve finding what their weaknesses are in real life. Once we get to layer 3 we get to some of the more difficult puzzles. If the blind girl character stays in the game we could have some sort of sound based puzzle, perhaps even through the use of voice acting.

Basically it would be something like this
Layer 1: Artistic, but generic MMO puzzles.
Layer 2: More innovative puzzles. Strict timing, hiding, reaction, thinking outside the box.
Layer 3: Hardcore mind puzzles. Physics puzzles. Sound puzzles. Decoding.

What do you guys think? Yes? No?

[bulmabriefs144]

Never do timing puzzles. Certain people (me) will not be able to finish them. Do puzzles that seem like they are timing but have a "stopper" (like a lava puzzle with a switch that shuts off midway through running across, but entering another screen, you can find a switch to hit that makes it stay on) instead. Purely cerebral, puzzle combinations using tools (some of the better Zelda puzzles).

Layer three can have at least one optional puzzle (it should definitely be optional) that leads to some serious treasure, but makes the average person go "wtf?" after solving it, since it's so weird.

Layer 2 and 3 might cap at level one, and do a primarily skill-based system based on special achievements/sidequests.

[MEands]

Oh yeah I get what you're saying. We don't want to create any barriers for the players. Perhaps we have a timing puzzle that can be solved with a non-timing method, but there in perhaps some sort of reward for getting to the end faster.

Okay, this is the mood I have in mind for the puzzles

I'm just really pushing for layer 3 to have very detailed and realistic puzzles.

[Sparrowsmith]

I'd definitely like to have some very complex puzzles in there, but I think we should play it on a win-win-lose basis.

At the beginning of Kingdom Hearts, you can race Rikku. It's quite a hard race, but doable. Even if you fail though, the game continues.
But we should have a lose as well.

So for every puzzle in layer 2 and 3, there are two (or more) ways to beat the puzzle, and one way to lose.
say the Junkyard. You want to progress to the end without getting caught. Getting caught causes the junkyard owner to fine you for breaking and entering. This means that later on, you don't have enough money to afford something, which puts the player at a small disadvantage.
So if you get caught at the first part of the puzzle, you get fined.
Second part of the puzzle? You get caught, but along the way you find an item the junkyard owner has been looking for. He doesn't fine you if you give him the item.
Third part of the puzzle? You escape, and the item you found can later be used in the battle against the Rogue Program.

In other puzzles, by making it further you get extra bits of dialogue. I don't want to have good/bad endings, but perhaps side stories go differently depending on how you handle puzzles.
Or maybe you avoid beating a very tough enemy. Like, you manage to harm it before the battle, so the rewards are the same, but the enemy is weakened.

So yeah, completing the puzzles properly makes the game easier, but with the same rewards, or even better rewards, but the harder puzzles don't need to be completed for the game to continue.

[bulmabriefs144]

Yes, this is what I was getting at. In my current game I have a music puzzle. You are able to outright skip it (no reward) if you're musically untalented, you can play the first 12 or so notes as laid out by the sound sample which gives you a weak chest, or you can play the whole first verse (being a fast song, this is just over 100 notes) which awards you a high quality treasure chest, and shows all the extra chests in the next room.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Aug 27 2012, 07:39 AM

[MEands]

Oh yeah, that's really good. Having multiple ways to solve it makes the game way more fun.
And also, being caught by the junkyard owner would be very good for character building.

[bulmabriefs144]

Oh yeah, that's really good. Having multiple ways to solve it makes the game way more fun.
And also, being caught by the junkyard owner would be very good for character building.

Also, it might be interesting to have a hidden way of having it both ways (if you give the item away, but actually wanna keep it you can steal it back but only by sneaking in at another time. There's some guard minigame when you need to slip by when his back is turned). There might be an added cutscene where the guy still thinks he's got it, and goes to check and is like "how'd I manage to lose it again?"

[Sparrowsmith]

Oh yeah, that's really good. Having multiple ways to solve it makes the game way more fun.
And also, being caught by the junkyard owner would be very good for character building.

Also, it might be interesting to have a hidden way of having it both ways (if you give the item away, but actually wanna keep it you can steal it back but only by sneaking in at another time. There's some guard minigame when you need to slip by when his back is turned). There might be an added cutscene where the guy still thinks he's got it, and goes to check and is like "how'd I manage to lose it again?"

I like this idea very much.


Seeing as we're discussing plot, I thought of a pretty big plot point recently (I think I might have mentioned it elsewhere...).
The programmers aren't coding a virtual reality, they're beta-testing a new programming language that they have created. I'm not fixed on a name yet, but I'm thinking either Prestige or Darwin.
It's a programming language designed to do seemingly impossible things, like create virtual worlds, or artificial intelligence. A programming language with intuition (different to intelligence). It runs on trial and improvement. You start by coding a draft of whatever you are trying to create (an AI, an object, anything) and then the program renders variations of that code. The programmers then identify the worst and best of the batch, and clean up the code where they can, and re-run it through the program. Over time the program learns what it is the programmers are trying to create, and will run multiple generations instantly. The program requires ALOT of data to run, and so the programmers have been feeding it data for decades. Eventually it knew enough to render realistic people, who have lives, and act as if they are real. They have food preferences, music they like to listen to, everything. All of this is generated and varied by the data supplied.
The final phase of the language is the ability to generate its own data. Subjects within the virtual world were given the ability to influence the program, to tell it what is good and what is bad (not morally, but realistically) and so the virtual world was crafted and made better by the AI within the world, and the AI were also improving each other. The problem is, this could only ever make AI seem real, it was Johnny's influence once he was plugged in that brought consciousness to the AI.

Anyway, this explains the security systems, the robot, and the virtual world. They are all things the programming language has designed, and the programmers are part of the refining process. They're basically beta testing all the things the language designs. Once the language is sophisticated enough to spontaneously generate intelligent security systems, purposeful robotics, and simulated worlds, it will be worth more money than anything ever invented ever.

However, the program wasn't learning fast enough, so the programmers decided they would release the virtual world to the public so that the program could gather more and more data from the people playing. Layer 1 was a trial version of this. While the characters in layer 2 play on keyboards, people in layer 3 can plug themselves into layer 1. This is why they're all kept on separate servers, so that people from layer 3 don't communicate with the AI from layer 2.
Layer 1 was found to be excessively violent though, and the programmers worried that people might die in layer 2 as well. This is why they made the resurrection code which corrupted the junkyard owner and turned him Rogue.

It's also why the Rogue Program is so dangerous. Not only does he pose a threat to layer 3 just by existing, but he's adaptable. The language that he runs on is changing his code according to his will. Every second he becomes smarter, more powerful. Once a copy of him is inside the robot, he's even more dangerous. He's learning how to improve his design.
Also, when he first comes to power in layer 2, he accidentally blows up the town, revealing the data underneath that he escapes into. What's he gonna do when he escapes into layer 3? Exact same thing, but on a much bigger scale

As always, the above is subject to change or just not being involved in the plot at all. Thoughts?

[bulmabriefs144]

Probably Darwin ("progress" motif). Or Prometheus (the whole motif of giving godlike power away). That said, I think Prometheus is a cliche program name now, so probably the first.

So things auto-correct to appear more real? Oooh, creepy.

Not sure he can (directly) invade layer 3, but he can certainly cause problems as code. Security systems attacking, malfunctioning traffic lights (or worse, if cars are now automated), and a robot apocalypse if left unchecked.

[Sparrowsmith]

Well his power would be limited to the facility. As soon as he showed up the programmers would have stopped any data flowing to the outside world. They can't risk anyone seeing their research before its complete. But yeah, The Rogue Program will take control of turrets and other security devices that were being tested with the language.

auto correcting is a good way to put it, so I take it you like the Darwin idea?

[bulmabriefs144]

Sure, let's go with it.

For this to really read true though, we'd need some really over-the-top arrogance from some of the programmers. Where they think they're doing the world a favor or something, so when things go wrong, they're REALLY freaked out.

Not just turrets, in addition to that and the main robot there should be dozens or even hundreds of tiny spider drones (they're for repairing wires in tiny crawlspaces), to the point where although you can fight, you'll more likely try to run. This would make the eventual blackout even creepier, all you can see is the shiny metal bodies of scores of mechanical spiders (have I mentioned i have arachnophobia).

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Aug 29 2012, 09:16 AM

[MEands]

I'm like, super into making the blackout terrifying XD
I like where this is all going, and I like the name Darwin.
One question. Why does a programming facility have turrets in the halls?

[bulmabriefs144]

Because it's awesome. But, yea, it probably wouldn't. It might have some type of motion sensor system when you have to sneak past or robotic guards (with turrets) would come. But mounted turrets, is a tad implausible. However, see above. We can do it precisely on that grounds that it's cool.

[MEands]

I mean, I'm all for turrets, we just need a good reason for them.

Maybe they have like an off limits floor that people aren't supposed to go in, the elevator skips that floor. "It might as well be 13 since most places do that anyway" and it's where they stored the more shady and unethical projects.