Save Points, A desperate plea Options

[rewells]

Hey y'all,

I've been meaning to write a post about this for a while, but it keeps slipping my mind until now. I get really annoyed when games do not have save points. The majority of non-RM games I play do have save points, so I am used to relying on them, not having to save just whenever I think about it. I'm glad that RM lets you save anywhere by default, but you could at least put some reminder to save before a boss or after a long cutscene. In most commercial RPGs, save points let me know when the challenge is going to increase (i.e., a boss fight is up ahead) or to let me know that a cutscene is about to happen, so I know if it's a good time to to take a bathroom break or call it quits for the night. They help me pace my the experience, and, most importantly, they remind me to save so I don't have to replay the same 20 minutes of game play!

Thank you

[Jonnie19]

I actually completely disagree with you in this case. I feel that Save Points pull you out of the game. It kinda makes you realize that it is just a game, and then can sometimes ruin the atmosphere of the game. Especially if the Save Points aren't developed well enough.

My favorite save point system is the ones used in Amnesia and Penumbra series. You are still immersed into the game, but you are inadvertently told that you have saved. Either by what is said by the player, or by opening up save files etc.

However, for games that do have Save Points, there aren't bloody enough of the damn things. So if you die half way through a Random Encounter then you're screwed. Especially in the later levels of RPG's

[Yuu-Mon Musuedo]

Well in my game, when you in save areas, cities, parks, etc. I allow players to save anywhere. But in areas where you could encounter enemies, I use a Japanese's Lucky Cat statue that talk to a player and give you "Luck". (Which is saving in my game) Like what some games would try and do with their save point like Castlevania Symphony of the Night, Alucard would sleep in a coffin, which saves his game.

Oddly, I don't degree with both of you. I feel a bit comfortable seeing a save point, but I do also like the idea of the game saving without one, kind of how Skyrim does when it auto-save when entering and exiting areas. But I like the way I do it in my game. Save anywhere in safe areas, save in save points in dungeons, while not having something like a floating crystal in a forest which makes no sense.

A save point that makes sense work for me.

[TheCableGuy]

I appreciate it when games incorporate save points into the framework of the gameplay in clever ways but truth be told, I hate "HAVING" to save, whether before, during or after major events because sometimes, I just don't want to save just because there's a save point THERE and maybe I would of rather rewinded the game just a few screens back. Sometimes, I just play through a game and, even though I saved at the previous save point, I play through with the intention of stopping and then restarting sometime after that last save point and I don't want to save again.

I really like being able to save anywhere at anytime, especially in open world games that have no specific Linear story. Save points probably are best suited for Linear Story games that have long "Adventures" between each save point, but I'd still rather have the ability to save at any time then to "Wait" for a save point, especially if I have to suddenly quit my game for some reason.

[Severity]

I prefer games when they just let you save anywhere you want. Skyrim for example, one of those games which lets you save anywhere you want. Whenever I play a game like FF6, I would get frustrated very easily as I always forget about save points and whenever I end up losing a boss fight, I would need to repeat the last 5-30 minutes of gameplay.

[amerk]

Save anywhere with save point reminders (to remind to save before an upcoming boss for example) is ideal with a lot of players. I don't really care, either way, but if you use save points, add them aplenty and allow saving anywhere on the world map.

I'm currently playing a game with save points, and it doesn't allow you to save on the world map.

Another option, save anywhere on the world map or in safe zones, but for dungeons, let the player buy save points. The cost can be relatively expensive, say around 1000 G for a standard save, and get expensive the more features it offers:

1. Standard Save = 1000 G
2. Save with 25% Party Restoration = 1500 G
3. Save with 50% Party Restoration = 2500 G
4. Save with full Party Restoration = 4000 G

This allows the players to be selective on how many save points to buy and use, but doesn't hinder from doing so if they have the resources.

[rewells]

Another option, save anywhere on the world map or in safe zones, but for dungeons, let the player buy save points. The cost can be relatively expensive, say around 1000 G for a standard save, and get expensive the more features it offers:

1. Standard Save = 1000 G
2. Save with 25% Party Restoration = 1500 G
3. Save with 50% Party Restoration = 2500 G
4. Save with full Party Restoration = 4000 G

This allows the players to be selective on how many save points to buy and use, but doesn't hinder from doing so if they have the resources.

Awesome idea. Wild Arms 3 did something similar. Gimle Coins let you save anywhere and restart battle if you are killed, but they can't be bought, they have to be found (they're plentiful. I never ran out.).

[Kaust]

I'm glad that RM lets you save anywhere by default, but you could at least put some reminder to save before a boss or after a long cutscene. In most commercial RPGs, save points let me know when the challenge is going to increase (i.e., a boss fight is up ahead) or to let me know that a cutscene is about to happen, so I know if it's a good time to to take a bathroom break or call it quits for the night. They help me pace my the experience, and, most importantly, they remind me to save so I don't have to replay the same 20 minutes of game play!

While I agree with that to an extent (I mean nothing more frustrating than out-of-nowhere boss battles) it does make games appear so tediously formulaic. So many games I've encountered are simply: town, explore, SAVE, boss, repeat. And after all, isn't this why we now expect to be able to save before a boss?

A save point should be more than a safety net, it should be there to let the player stop playing without losing data (it was so frustrating when my parents would turn off Final Fantasy as a kid and I hadn't found a save point before bedtime) so yeah, the option to save all the time makes sense, autosave is even better.

[Legacy]

A save point should be more than a safety net, it should be there to let the player stop playing without losing data (it was so frustrating when my parents would turn off Final Fantasy as a kid and I hadn't found a save point before bedtime) so yeah, the option to save all the time makes sense, autosave is even better.

The same thing happened to me as a kid! Damn parents.

Saving all the time would make the game too easy, auto-saving at certain locations would be better than saving all the time.I think that save points can make a game harder or way too easy,so they need to be placed with care and thought.

Just my $0.02

[Vexus]

On my project alive I'm thinking on how to add the save function but while it's convenient to have a save point everywhere I really don't like it.

Games should have that mystery feeling and having a save point near a boss room ruins every point of discovering what lies ahead.

Anyway on my project I've been thinking on these 3 for now unless I get more suggestions:

1 - Having a table with a lamp lit on it that when interacted your diary gets shown on the table (Indoors only) which let's you record your time on your diary.
2 - Having an option to save after every chapter/story chapter.
3 - Auto saving on every chapter end/start or storyline chapter end/start.

Don't know of any more options for now but it has to fit with the game and I'm not adding save option in menu.

I like having different save point systems in games based on their nature (Sci-fi, fantasy, horror, etc etc) it adds a small but nice touch to the game.

[amerk]

A save point should be more than a safety net, it should be there to let the player stop playing without losing data (it was so frustrating when my parents would turn off Final Fantasy as a kid and I hadn't found a save point before bedtime) so yeah, the option to save all the time makes sense, autosave is even better.

Mom: "Five minutes before bedtime."
Me (thinking): *** Crap, I'm fighting a boss and it's been an hour since I last saved. ***

Two minutes later:

Mom: "Five minutes are up! Go to bed." (apparently mom couldn't tell time very well)
Me: "But mom! I have to get to--"
Fwoop! Mom pulls the plug out of the wall, and everything shuts down.
Mom: "Well, now you'll just have to start over."
Me, praying that my previous saves weren't erased (Damn the NES battery feature!)

Okay, maybe not quite as drastic but close enough to get Kaust's meaning. Lucky for me, while my mom knew to go for the plug itself and effectively turn off both the tv and the NES, my father was less gifted and simply hit the tv power (not realizing the NES was still on and waiting for our next fight command). So we'd twiddle our thumbs, pretend to do what we needed to, and when dad was gone we'd turn the tv back on, turn the volume down, and quickly try to finish up and finding that cursed save spot.

[TheCableGuy]

Okay, maybe not quite as drastic but close enough to get Kaust's meaning. Lucky for me, while my mom knew to go for the plug itself and effectively turn off both the tv and the NES, my father was less gifted and simply hit the tv power (not realizing the NES was still on and waiting for our next fight command). So we'd twiddle our thumbs, pretend to do what we needed to, and when dad was gone we'd turn the tv back on, turn the volume down, and quickly try to finish up and finding that cursed save spot.

What I would do was to wait til a lull in the game or pause it (depending on the game) and would turn the T.V. off myself and then wait til everyone was gone then Finish it. Took me a while but had to learn to anticipate my parent's actions before they could make them.

Ironic how Most Punishments that parents inflict on us as children don't teach anything except how to not get caught.

[Shaddow]

You sneak skilled has raised to 56! I was the same way as a kid. XD

I personally think save points are inconvenient. Perhaps I've been spoiled by portable games, but I like the option to save when I'm ready to stop or save after something -I- think is important, as a player, not what the Game Designer decided was a good point. I don't believe that save anywhere is easy mode.

Sure you can save right before a tough section and try to your hearts content, but it's not any easier, you still have to figure out how to get past that tough section. If I don't have to traverse a mile before trying again all the better to me as a player. I also think that a good designer can put clues in to a level to indicate you are getting closer to a boss. Scratch marks on the walls, webs everywhere, bodies...anything really. You can keep it immersive and still let the player know that it's probably a wise idea to save.

[rewells]

Anyway on my project I've been thinking on these 3 for now unless I get more suggestions:

1 - Having a table with a lamp lit on it that when interacted your diary gets shown on the table (Indoors only) which let's you record your time on your diary.

Sounds like Resident Evil, where you use typewriters to save, but you also have to find ink ribbons to be able to use them. It works well for a survival horror game, as you have to conserve your saves and there's always a perceived risks that you could run out! That's a good example of save points being incorporated appropriately into the story and gameplay, I think.

[bulmabriefs144]

I like savepoints, but they should be a plot-relevant item rather than a big honking light circle.

Something like a diary. Or as in Dragon Quest, the town priest recording your sins.

Save points are difficult to balance. Either they don't heal you, and you can potentially save without items, and without much of a chance. Or they allow grind training because they heal you fully right after you touch one.

I think this is why final fantasy had the whole tents thing. I have a portable tent, with no bed or sleeping bag until you buy one (making it initially just for changing the party). You can buy more upgrades later if you start earning obscene amounts of money.

The other way to balance things is have saving only in town.

Also, I've seen people who have these long strings of stuff in the local event. Savepoints work best as a common event, so if there's a glitch, it isn't copy-pasted 400 times. It also helps for people who want to change game balance, if things are too easy/hard.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Sep 18 2012, 08:34 AM

[TheBen]

There are, of course, certain times when saving anywhere would be a bad thing, mainly to preserve a sense of difficulty. If you can save in the middle of a Fire Emblem battle, then you have the advantage of immortality on your side - if the battle doesn't go your way, start over from a turn ago and plan things differently this time. On the other hand, if you only have partial immortality - you can restart at the beginning, or major points in the battle - you're going to play a more defensive, high-stakes game to avoid the punishment of starting over.

However, save points are otherwise rather unnecessary and don't make the game that much harder in the end. Even in cases such as the one described above, you could include a "quicksave" system to allows the player to finish a level in multiple sittings (it's what the FE developers did!).

If you do include a save point, then at least let it perform some auxiliary functions (limited healing, teleportation, access to a shop) rather than being a total nuisance.

P.S. If you put a save point into an open-world game, I might have to kill you. Having to to spend the extra 15-20 minutes gunning for a save point miles from your location (or objective) is really just a bad idea... *cough* Metroid Prime *cough*

This post has been edited by TheBen: Sep 18 2012, 02:09 PM

[Shaddow]

P.S. If you put a save point into an open-world game, I might have to kill you. Having to to spend the extra 15-20 minutes gunning for a save point miles from your location (or objective) is really just a bad idea... *cough* Metroid Prime *cough*

Haha. That is so true! I also agree with the auxiliary purpose thing. Another thing to consider, is giving rewards for limited saves, kind of like how the Resident Evil games reward you in a second play through for few saves. This could, of course, be implemented mid game, a reward for reaching certain points with minimal saves, it would encourage heavy playing and while saving is an option, it presents risk v reward scenarios for the players.

[Patinator]

Huh. I for one really like the idea of using tents and such as a portable save, and being able to upgrade it as the game goes on. That's... a really cool idea... auto-saving would work well too. Combining the two - being able to save only in towns at certain buildings except for using your tent/etc., which is limited to being used only in non-populated areas... and then having a subtle autosave feature every once in a while in dungeons and stuff. Have a slight pause and a little tiny message in the bottom of the screen that says "Autosaving...", which makes the player go "oh crap, boss"...

...I might have to think on this. The save system is important! Hmm.

[Apricot]

Personally I feel like save points are necessary for something to truly feel like a RPG to me, but I do agree that they should be creative or at least slightly different than "the norm".

[rewells]

Huh. I for one really like the idea of using tents and such as a portable save, and being able to upgrade it as the game goes on. That's... a really cool idea... auto-saving would work well too. Combining the two - being able to save only in towns at certain buildings except for using your tent/etc., which is limited to being used only in non-populated areas... and then having a subtle autosave feature every once in a while in dungeons and stuff. Have a slight pause and a little tiny message in the bottom of the screen that says "Autosaving...", which makes the player go "oh crap, boss"...

...I might have to think on this. The save system is important! Hmm.

I have mixed feelings about auto-saving. It is convenient, but it can prevent me from "going back" and re-watching cutscenes or replaying fun bits. Also, if an RPG auto-saves right before a boss with no opportunity to turn around, you're kind of screwed if your level isn't high enough to win.

A compromise could be check points that you return to when you die. Check points could be set automatically once you reach them but not overwrite your data.