I Am Legion, Very, VERY early development. Looking for critique. Options

[Gogon]

Only the logo is done.

*DISCLAIMER ~ There are some heavy religious overtones which may or may not be controversial, depending on your viewpoint on such matters. This mainly deals with the early Abrahamic - not Christian, Judaic, or Muslim - interpretation of God and so on, though there are elements from Abrahamic relgions as a whole. If this is offensive to you, be warned.

The premise is this - humanity is on the brink of extinction. The Supreme Being, that being God, cursed humanity for all of its shortcomings and unleashed Hell on Earth, bringing about an apocalypse which wiped out most of the human race. You are one of the few survivors, and you only did so because before the moment of judgment, you made a pact with Lucifer (based on his Paradise Lost interpretation), a pact which has not only sealed your fate as a man lost in limbo for eternity, but has also branded you an undesirable, surrendering God's good graces.

Before you succumbed to trading death by an angel's touch for damnation and servitude under the command of Lucifer, you were a chivalrous Templar Knight, a man of honor and of God. Upon trading death and perhaps reconciliation with God for survival, you've become corrupted and distorted into a Blood Knight, constantly looking for new monsters and creatures, all of which were bred and unleashed upon Earth by God during the Apocalypse.

You are the protagonist and antagonist of the story. You make the choices - do you seek redemption, chaos, or somewhere in between? I want to craft my upcoming game into a sort of WRPG/Horror/Dungeon Crawler hybrid, with a JRPG battle system. Since you're only one of very few humans left alive, the entire world (or just the part you're exploring) is a dungeon. Monsters lurk everywhere, even in desolate inns and abandoned castles. The world is forever dark and you don't buy anything, you find them within the game world or make them yourself with whatever tools you may have. If there is an Inn, you don't pay to sleep there. You can walk inside, fight whatever monsters are inside, and sleep for free.

You will find humans around, but being branded an undesirable, you may or may not be able to find any cooperating denizens, unless they themselves are branded like you or have forsaken the cross or whatever creed they followed before for their own needs. I want to implement (which will be rather easy) a dialog system akin to Dragon Age where you are the character. The player has complete control over the versatility of the Blood Knight's personality, as well as his skills and so on.

There will be a story unlike most games of this ilk (meaning dungeon crawlers), although the specifics of such are still being worked on. I'm at the conceptual stage since I'm still working on producing a demo for my Crimson Thorns game. So, bascially, here's the gist of the ideas and I want to see if anybody would be willing to play such a game if it were being made.

~ Gameplay ~
- Yanfly Battle Engine Melody - Active Turn Battle ; Empty View
- Crafting system, using whatever tools you may find to create your own weapons and armor and so on
- Scarcity of food will play a big part. There are no potions, no miracle elixirs - you will have to find food and consume it within a length of time, or else it will go bad and be of no use

~ Dialog ~
- Dialog system similar to Dragon Age and Mass Effect, where you'll always have four choices or paths to completing a quest, be they from someone else or from your master, Lucifer
- You won't always know what is "Good," "Bad," "Neutral," or whatever. I want it to be incredibly gray, with little room for black and white moral decisions
- How you tackle quests, what you do to the few remaining people within your region, and so on will determine what ending you receive, resulting in multiple playthroughs being pertinent

~ Other Features and Stuff ~
- Bestiary. Since there are many monsters, I want the player to accurately gauge what they can and can't fight at the moment, so whenever you defeat a monster, either easy or difficult, it will be placed in the bestiary with all of its stats
- This is a post-apocalyptic world, but it's not modern. This game takes place after the Third Crusades in an alternate timeline, so do not expect modern weaponry and so on. I wanted to conceptualize a very different post-apocalyptic RPG from the norm, which are usually modern based
- No random encounters planned. You can see the enemy (which will be a generic sprite that I'm still pondering over) on the field, but since the sprite is generic, you won't know what you're facing until you touch the enemy

So, what do you think? Criticism and so on is welcome, unless it's about the religious theme. I'm pretty set on that matter.

This post has been edited by Gogon: Jul 26 2010, 12:13 AM

[brightcrazystar]

Um, let me get this straight... you are one of the few that escaped ruination by eschewing your vows as a Holy Knight and making a pact with Satan? Um, aren't those the guys that usually get tossed in the fires first? Other than that, these left behind sort of stories are far better when more of what is exactly going on is left up to the imagination.

How biblical is your account going to be. I mean if the point of most of humanity dying has already occured, the seven seals are broken, and the rise of the Warrior King is already near. The next thing that occurs if ALL THE WICKED GET PWNED.

I am not offended, but I have to say logistically - this opens up a huge can of worms that makes me wonder if it is worth the effort. I mean you esentially are combining the story of Theophilius with the story of Dante and putting it into a mold of Milton's work. This is really not about religion at all. That is just a literary device.

Then comes the whole issue of being a Templar... really? How about make him a Cathar, whose religious beliefs might actually make sense in this context. The Church condemns the Cathars and rounds up about 10,000 of them for hersey implying a Luciferan connection between The Devil and Jesus. You as a Cathar made a pact with the enemy of those hunting your people, for your safety, or whatever. Thus you escape the slaughter... but now there is apparently and literally Hell to pay. Those or Yezidi Kurds would be far more likely than Templars.

[Ember]

You've got a pretty well written and very intriguing concept going here, but I'm interested to know what exactly it is the player is trying to accomplish in the game? Is it a sandbox?

[Reshiram//Exe]

The story seems well developed. I'm looking forward to playing this. And i like the idea of total freedom you are going to offer to the player. Make the maps great and the scripts well done and you'll have yourself a great game.

[Lethal Visions]

As BrightCrazyStar said, having him as a Cathar does seem like a much better idea, with the heretical accusations flying around...

I would suggest, as he HAS made a pact with the Devil, you look at legends and mythos outside the Bible for ideas pertaining to common man's perception of the hellbound...

For instance "Witches' Hammer" comes to mind... Also, you might try "La-Bas" by Huysmans,

For your absense of black and white moralities, try "Might is Right" by Redbeard, as it might help accentuate the hero's persona... (warning a bit offensive in places...)

Other than that, I'm intrigued to say the least.. especially with the inclusion of the food, item, and weapons system, meaning you really DO live off the land, the same land that has cursed you..

I await more...

[Gogon]

@ brightcrazystar: The moment I had written that, I realized I had a major plot hole on my hands (as well as historical inaccuracy), so I'm actually quite glad, in fact, relieved, you mentioned what you did. The Cathars make an excellent substitution. I only wanted him to be a Templar so he would have a somewhat Knight-like background, but perhaps making him a closet Cathar, but a Templar nonetheless, would work, or maybe a Crusader perhaps? Since there's no real overlap regarding the persecution of Cathars and the overall decline of the Templars, known as "Friday the 13th" as the day the Church decided to do something against them. You're quite right about it being a literary device, though. I don't want to make it too symbolic of anything relating to religion - it's just used as a means to get the ball rollin'.

That's why I wanted critique. The background is very rough around the edges and I could use some well found knowledge. I know enough of the biblical accounts to not make a total hypocrite of myself, and I've read Paradise Lost and The Divine Comedy, which are inspirations, but I'm not looking for symbolism. It would seem too awkward.

@ Ember: It is largely sandbox. You'll have the freedom to go wherever you choose in the beginning (provided you can survive the monsters waiting for you in those areas), though there are individual stories involved, as well as the main, overarching story with you as the main driving force. Trying to maintain a balance between keeping a cohesive narrative together and giving the player enough freedom will indeed be quite a challenge.

@ Lethal Visions: I thank you wholeheartedly for those suggestions. I will look 'em up and see what I find. I will go with him being a Cathar, but I really want your character (who you'll name), to be of a Knightly-background

brightcrazystar, Lethal Visions, anybody, if you want to help me conceptualize the whole piece as it pertains to the background info, I'll be grateful. This was just a rough draft of the premise, by no means meant to be "final". Fleshing out the background of this character would make producing the story a whole lot easier, and since you guys seem to know your stuff, I'd appreciate the heads-up if you can. . I just thought, from reading the Old Testament, the old Hebrew God would be a lot less sympathetic than the modern Christian God and thus players would actually want to play as this character, even though they do eventually mould him into whatever they wish him to be - Satanic, Messianic, down the middle, out for himself, or even maybe he believes in his pact but does good deeds, or does bad deeds with the intention of getting into God's good graces again, like many Crusaders did.

This post has been edited by Gogon: Jul 26 2010, 11:03 AM

[brightcrazystar]

Personally, I would go in a different direction:

I would make it one of the Crusade for Languedoc, the Crusade of the Roman Church under Pope Innocent III against the Cathars. It was no less than attempted genocide of over 500,000 Cathars, Catholics, and Pagans over theological differences. The Catharism was the most sophisticatedly tolerant form of Christianity at the time. One the Church still maintains a firm stance against as heresy. The battles in this crusade were bloody and merciless; where the leader of the forces sponsored by the Church lets know the position of the Papacy early in the wholesale slaughter of an entire town of more than 20,000: "Kill them all, God will know his own." This is the Albigensian Crusade, and there were many knights on both side, as there were nobles on both sides of this war against a dualistic heresy.

In your world you can easily demonize Pope Innocent III (he did most of the work himself), and make a distinguishment from the God of the Cathars, which is a dualistic reconciliation of good and evil through the Gnostic appeals; Spirit is "Good", Matter is "Evil". They believed the material world to be a prison- that Satan was the personification of chaos, and the earth a construct that allowed the dark forces to imprison and partake of the nature of the light. The taught that it it was a Cathar’s spiritual duty to liberate the spirit from its material prison. They also believed the Church was not worshipping the pure God, but the Lord of this world. They did not believe in Hell, nor in a final Judgement. The believed that the old Testament wrath of God was actually Satan (in many accounts) and that Jesus was the pure spirit of God come down the reconcile the effects of that Demi-urge. The Revelation was his announcement for the reincarnation of the world, the transcendence of it from the the material for the Faithful. The believed the Papacy was the work of Satan, for it taught heresies such as the Sacrament. With an acceptance of homosexuality, abortion, suicide, euthenasia and many other topics that remain hot topics of Christian debate, it is no wonder the Cathars faced the wrath of the Catholic Church. If fact, the only intolerance the Cathars really had was for other people's claim that they were Christians too. But their was popular outside of their fold. In fact, the Catharist view of God and the Devil heavily influences literature and music from the 13th century even until this day. C.H. Nullens wrote what I consider to the be the best book on the subject.

Now how to take all this and make it a game... heh

So, no make a Knight, both sides had them, and make the game take place in Languedoc after it was uttely ravaged and the purity of the spirit of God has fled the land as Satan's dark hand comes down holding the Papal scepter of oppression. As the purity of the spirit dwindles and the Parfait and Laity (two social orders based on spiritual vows and priviledges) flee, Hell has opened up where there was once a small chaplaincy for the True Light of God in the World of Men. Do you continue to fight for the Light, or give in to the dark torment of the Hell around you.

[Lethal Visions]

just remember your demographic... too much descriptiveness can sap the lifeforce from the game...

However, with that said, I love the story idea so far... Question to BrightCrazyStar, as well as Gogon of course...

What about reference books from the Apocryphia? The Books of Eden? The tones there have a stranger tinge, and of course were thrown out of the Canonized books at the Council of Nicaea. Just a thought...

[brightcrazystar]

Here is where I sit with descriptiveness. I flesh things out about 68% before I tie a story down to a region, era, or genre. I then find a place that is does fit, such as I start "Knight" and then hone it down to where and when. Then, I do a bit of research and try to make it seem casual to the reader/player. In general, it is alot of research to add depth, without actually forcing them to endure a history lesson or literature class. But in general, I find if you can give them digestabel depth, most players rather enjoy it. There is of course the artisitic license you can take as well, as Gogon stated a desired Luciferan poetic influence in his game. Of the 85% or so of the world I totally flesh out, I may only share 30% with the player/readers. I generally dislike omniscient perspectives as they bog down way too much.

As for the Apocryphal Texts, no original text weight in Nicea ever reached us. Everything in every published "Bible" everywhere is a copy of a copy of a translation. Even the 4 Gospels (According to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) of the Peteric/Paulian canon were re-written by Bishop Ire'nee' de Lyon at the end of the 2nd Century. As for the Cathars, their interest in the Bible most promiently focused on John, the apocraphyal St. Thomas and Revelations. They did not put the Bible beyond the Gospel as a necessity, and disdained organized churches. Their religion was most confirmed through a creed of action (advised by Matthew's Gospel) and a rite of Initiation for the Parfait. The Laity were generally the "flock" of people who believed but had not witnessed the mysteries.

Actually, my first instinct would be that the Apocrypha would be awesome world collectibles that could also have some in game use.

I must confess, despite the Damnation overtones, this story really strikes a "fallout" vibe with me. That is a good thing.

Cheers!

[Gogon]

"My name is Legion: for we are many." ~ Gospel of Mark, 5:9

You are Maël, the bastard son of Lucifer and a female Cathar; you bear the mark of the beast, despite being raised a decent and virtuous Cathar. In 1216, upon your 26th Birthday, crusaders under the command of Simon de Montfort rain down upon the commune you call home, "cleansing" it of the heretics known as the Cathars.

As the people are massacred all around you, the situation grows dire and you grow destitute. Bereft of any immediate hope or salvation, you turn to the only force that can help you - Rex Mundi, the King and Creator of the material world. In exchange for power and survival, he commands you to unseat the pretender to his throne - Pope Innocent III, the very man who called for the Crusade. However, the Pope has also made it very personal - you desire retribution and justice for the murder of your people.

However, once you made the pact with Rex Mundi, you unleashed the legions of Hell among the unsuspecting populace as well. The Pope believes that the Cathars consorted with the demons in exchange for the destruction of the Crusaders, which only increases his zeal. In light of this, the forces of heaven are forced to act. The seven seals are broken in quick succession and all hell breaks loose. Chaos ensues, with you in the middle of an epic struggle for the fate of the world.

*NOTE: STORY SPOILERS CONTAINED BELOW. CRITIQUE, DISCUSSION, AND CONCEPTS WANTED*

That's the synopsis in a nutshell. The old I Am Legion concept is dead and from the ashes, a new one rises. I have numerous design documents already written, pertaining to the story, gameplay, characters, and even music. I've asked my friend, who's an artist and composer, to help me with this project. I feel that the VX RTP is insufficient, so I'm employing him to create entirely custom graphics for the project.

I know the plot is a lot to digest and it may seem convoluted, but this has been in the back of my mind for too long. The old I Am legion concept above did not work. I went back to the drawing board and researched the Albigensian Crusade extensively, which I thought fit what I wanted. I researched Cathar values, customs, and the like. I also went back to the Biblical text of Revelation, whic provides a subtext for the game. Milton's Paradise Lot, Dante's Inferno, and Goethe's Faust also provide some inspiration in this project.

The main character, Maël, is the bastard son of Lucifer. I did not want this revealed as a trite twist in which Lucifer comes out and says, "Maël, I AM your father." Too common, so I decided to tell the player up front. Maël's conception is actually similar to the popular legends surrounding Alexander's the Great's conception - Zeus, in the form of a snake, impregnates Alexander's mother. In this case, Lucifer takes the form of the serpent - the same form he used to deceive Eve in the Garden of Eden - and impregnates a chaste Cathar perfecti.

I wanted that instant connection. To the players, it will become painfully obvious that the Rex Mundi that Maël strikes a deal with is actually Lucifer, which again creates an interesting dynamic. Maël means "Chief" or "Prince," while Rex Mundi is Latin for "King of the World". In popular culture, the Antichrist is usually the son of Lucifer or Satan, so again, I wanted that immediate connection.

I'm aiming for five playable characters. Maël, three fictional characters, and a historical figure. Since this takes place during the Albigensian Crusade, I thought a fitting playable character would be Raymond VII, son of Raymond VI of Toulouse. The Counts of Toulouse were known defenders of the Cathars, so it was only natural that one of the Raymonds be playable. I chose the son because during this point in history, he is involved in the Siege of Beaucaire while his father has just come back from exile in Aragon. The siege plays a part in the game.

The other three characters will be as followed;

~ Matthias: A Spanish Templar who hails from the Kingdom of Aragon. He is a veteran of the Third Crusade and also served Peter II of Aragon, a known supporter of the Counts of Toulouse during the early years of the Albigensian Crusade. He joins Maël in an act of good faith between him and the Cathars.
~ Johanna: A German woman who poses as a member of the Knights Hospitaller in order to help fight off the hordes of Hell that have invaded the Holy Roman Empire. Born a peasant, she saw visions of a young man slaying the Great Red Dragon. She believes Maël to be this man and joins him.
~ Unnamed female character: A "Pagan" sorceress who lives near the Alps. She deals in the occult and sees Maël as To Mega Therion, or the Great Beast that will destroy the old world and create a New World Order.

Quite a few historical figures are involved. Pope Innocent III obviously plays a huge part in the game as one of the antagonists. Since he died in the Summer of 1216, I placed the story in that timeframe in order to accommodate Maël's own personal quest against the Pope. The Papacy during this time was incredibly powerful and influential, with Innocent III being considered one of the most powerful Popes ever. He was a fitting choice for an antagonist, seeing as the main character is a displaced Cathar. To the Cathars, he is an agent of Rex Mundi - a false prophet. However, since Maël is supposed to kill him, he's seen as a usurper to Rex Mundi's throne.

Simon de Montfort and his son Amaury are also antagonists. Since it was Simon's forces that personally massacred the Cathar commune Maël hailed from, he becomes a target. Amaury is basically being designed as Raymond VII's rival, so he also plays a part in the game. Philip II, the King of France, is merely mentioned during the game. However, Odo III of Burgundy plays a small part. The War of Succession in Champagne plays no part in the game, though. It would be too much.

The Forces of Heaven and Hell are huge players in the game. "Rex Mundi," or Lucifer, is treated as an antagonist, even though he wants you to succeed in your task. He's genre savvy enough to see the eventual Oedipus complex that will take shape upon your realization of "Rex Mundi = your father," but he doesn't care. He wants his son to revel in the destruction of the Catholic Church. This Lucifer takes bits and pieces from classical depictions. There are many facets to him - he is charming but arrogant, calculating but chaotic, etc. He can be compared to Milton's Lucifer, but without being the "Ruler of Hell" as he is often portrayed as.

A few of Lucifer's fellow fallen angels and demons also appear in the game, but I've narrowed it down to only three - Adramelech, Moloch, and Asmodeus. Moloch and Adramelech were mentioned in Paradise Lost, while Asmodeus is in the Book of Tobit and a notable demon in his own right. Beezlebub and Belial were considered, but they were too cliche for inclusion.

What I want the player to understand is that Lucifer is NOT the King of Hell in this game. Even though this is based on his Paradise Lost interpetation, there is some Dante and actual Biblical accounting in here. He's damned, just like everybody else in Hell. The Legions of Hell are your enemies just as much as the Crusaders and forces of Heaven are, but not because they serve Lucifer. They are chaotic evil and have no masters. The only demons associated with Lucifer are the ones I mentioned above by name and they will be attempting to test your resolve throughout the game.

The archangels are also treated as antagonists, since they are attempting to impede you. Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael are your enemies, not your allies, though the game will present you with choices near the end as to who you will consider your true enemy. They are emissaries of God, but they also serve the Lamb's apocalyptic agenda, just like the Four Horsemen who also appear in the game as bosses. Each archangel is designed to have an opposite rival - Michael with Lucifer, Gabriel with Asmodeus, Uriel with Adramelech, and Raphael with Moloch. I'm avoiding any depictions of Jesus and God, though.

As for locations, I've considered Rome and Jerusalem as two primary locations in the game. The game will be divided into three acts, with each Act containing a certain amount of areas you can venture into. It's basically a closed sandbox. I don't want the game to be too long, though - the story is being written in a way that's fast paced.

- - - - -

Battles will be fought Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne style. Press Turns are utilized. Doing anything, from using items to mashing attack, will cost a turn. Exploiting enemy weaknesses will usually be in your favor as you gain more turns.

Stamina replaces MP, and with each attack or skill you use, your stamina diminishes. The "Attack" button can no longer be spammed, for you risk depleting your stamina as it consumes it. So, using your turns wisely and conserving stamina are of great importance. Defending replenishes small amount of stamina. Seems like a lot of micromanaging, but it's not. A morale gauge is also being put into play, so with each attack, critical hit, and enemy weakness exploited, your morale will go up. This allows you to use special skills, pool morale into stamina, etc.

The enemies are also being scaled as a result of the sandbox-esque nature each Act employs. This will present greater challenges, but this system is being tweaked so that it doesn't become bothersome. I don't want battles to be easy or casual, though. Battles are a big part of this game, so I'm attempting on refining the difficulty and mechanics. I'm not making it Demon Souls hard, but I definitely do not want people cruising through the game on autopilot like a lot of RPG Maker games.

Battles are also not going to be random. In fact, they will be pre-scripted into the areas, like Chrono Trigger and action games, so grinding will be almost impossible. I'm still not sure about respawning enemies, though. No minigames are being planned at this time. I'm not big on 'em myself, but this is still in pre-development, so anything can happen.

The game is being designed as a dungeon crawler RPG with horror elements. There aren't really any towns for you to visit since everything is in chaos and disarray. The major cities are battlefields. Horror comes into play in the imagery and atmosphere, as well as conservation of items because you will not find any shops in this game, so things are scarce.

- - - - -

This is not going to be a family-friendly and colorful JRPG chock full of anime tropes. I've already told my friend that there will be blood, gore, intense violence, disturbing images, and depictions of artistic nudity involved. The game itself is not entirely religious, but there will be liberal doses of Christian iconography, mythos, and themes interjected with everything else.

In terms of tone and pace, the game is being paced like an action game - think God of War, Dante's Inferno, Devil May Cry, and Castlevania. As for tone, the aesthetics are being planned along the lines of the recent Castlevania and Dante's Inferno games, but in 2D. I kinda liken it to an RPG version of a Christian-themed Onimusha game, if that gives you any ideas.

So, what do you guys think so far? Pre-development has started. I'm organizing my design documents and writing the script for the story as we speak, while my friend is composing the music and helping with the graphics and artwork. Originally, this game was a much different beast altogether. I've changed a lot of it and downscaled the sandbox feel while upscaling everything else. I've been rpgmaking for ten years, ever since the Playstation RPG Maker games and this is my first "major" project that I've undertaken. I've taken extreme measures in getting it ready, from story and gameplay outlines, to writing out the script, to actually getting somebody to help me with the music and art.

I don't see it being done anytime soon, but any feedback is appreciated. This is the only game I'll be working on as well. It has my full focus. I wish I had some images to show you guys, but I don't at this time. When the character concepts and logos are done, I'll post 'em.

[Jackal26]

"I Am Legion?"

thought it was

"We Are Legion..."

[Fixxxer4153]

This sounds like a really awesome concept. I love how you are undertaking such a degree of detail so early in its development. A lot of people, I've noticed, just kinda start making a game, without much forethought, and they usually turn out to be mediocre at best. I'll be waiting for more updates to come, this porject has so much potential, I can't wait for a demo release, although I know its probably a long time coming.

[amerk]

Gogon I like your June 25 story synopsis better than the original. However, to not clash with the I Am Legend story (which I initially misread this as), have you considered changing the name to, a you quoted, "My Name is Legion" or perhaps just "Legion"?

This post has been edited by amerk: Jul 27 2011, 04:38 PM