Plot, Continuing from Ideas. Options

[Sparrowsmith]

I mean, I'm all for turrets, we just need a good reason for them.

I kinda covered it here:

Anyway, this explains the security systems, the robot, and the virtual world. They are all things the programming language has designed, and the programmers are part of the refining process. They're basically beta testing all the things the language designs. Once the language is sophisticated enough to spontaneously generate intelligent security systems, purposeful robotics, and simulated worlds, it will be worth more money than anything ever invented ever.

The lab needs security, and they have a program that can create intelligent security systems, so they kill two birds with one stone.
The systems are automatic. They won't attack anyone who has proper clearance (represented by an ID badge) and if you don't have an ID badge then they still won't fire unless authorization is given. If no orders are given within five minutes, the security system assumes breach and fires warning shots. If the intruder does not remain still, lethal force is used.
This is another reason they have robots, to test the lethal force without killing a person.

So yeah, basically the program is also capable of designing security systems, and the programmers are testing them too.

[bulmabriefs144]

I mean, I'm all for turrets, we just need a good reason for them.

I kinda covered it here:

Anyway, this explains the security systems, the robot, and the virtual world. They are all things the programming language has designed, and the programmers are part of the refining process. They're basically beta testing all the things the language designs. Once the language is sophisticated enough to spontaneously generate intelligent security systems, purposeful robotics, and simulated worlds, it will be worth more money than anything ever invented ever.

The lab needs security, and they have a program that can create intelligent security systems, so they kill two birds with one stone.
The systems are automatic. They won't attack anyone who has proper clearance (represented by an ID badge) and if you don't have an ID badge then they still won't fire unless authorization is given. If no orders are given within five minutes, the security system assumes breach and fires warning shots. If the intruder does not remain still, lethal force is used.
This is another reason they have robots, to test the lethal force without killing a person.

So yeah, basically the program is also capable of designing security systems, and the programmers are testing them too.

Ummm...? Under normal circumstances, it would never use lethal force. It would fire warning shots, then try to hamstring its target by firing on the legs, and use the robots to escort its target off premises. This is a safeguard against someone forgetting their ID. Also, machines using lethal force would generate far more bad press, causing them to be shut down fairly quickly. So yea, normally these things are designed to hit non-vital areas, and use a low power laser. Which makes it even more scary, that it has this kind of precision and control and it's focused on not killing people. Anyone who took it over would easily be able to kill someone. This aspect actually makes it more scary.

Also, who stands still if a system prepares to fire? Maybe if they continue to advance the use of lethal force would be warranted, but attacking retreating people seems really off.

[Sparrowsmith]

well, it's all top secret, so Asimov's three laws might not apply, but you're probably right about non lethality.
Also, I was kind of assuming there would be some kind of voice to warn off intruders as soon as they enter, and the authorization part is so a security officer can look at the video feed and see if it's really an intruder or not. No authorization means the security has been compromised and the lab is in danger. Non lethal force is preferable, but this place is probably at least a little illegal.

Your way is probably better, just thought I'd say my piece.

[bulmabriefs144]

Well, that is true, there may have been a few "accidental" deaths from people advancing too far into the corridor towards the secret labs. But even so, it should not be programmed to fire on retreating people.

[MEands]

For the sake of the game, the turret's range is 12 blocks of RPG maker space. At 18 blocks it will give a warning, at 14 blocks it will fire warning shots. Although once the rogue program enters into the system it will override the warning system. You just have to make sure not to be in range.

I feel like the turrets are going to be a really cool puzzle.

[bulmabriefs144]

As a puzzle, how does this work? Do we have cameras on one side that turn one way, then one the other size in the opposite, forcing you to zigzag? Is it done by a laser grid? Is it a timing puzzle when you have to cross in rhythm of the thing flicking on and off?

[Shaddow]

So. I just spent AGES reading up on all this, or most of it so far. I am really really liking where this is going. I do have a few things to say though.
If we are so concerned with reality upon reality and everyone matters, why does Layer One get such negative treatment? Don't get me wrong, I think blowing up Layer One is a great idea, it really makes the threat seem real.

I just don't think all aspects of Layer One should be gone. I think that when the players in Layer Two get their powers, they should also get a bit of 'personality' within that shows that their characters were alive too, maybe not as alive as they are, but it's food for thought.

This plays into another idea I had. The last boss should be fought on all three layers. I thought up a small way this could be worked out. The avatars from Layer One can get their bodies back while in the security system, and deal with the boss in a standard RPG last boss kind of way.

During this time, and maybe between each form, the Layer Two people are running around inside the Security System, fighting bits and pieces of the last boss, but in a different style? Maybe solving puzzles?

Finally on Layer Three, the programmers are running around, doing the other types of puzzles and trying to prevent the Rogue Program from leaving.

I realize this has a lot going for it already, but I thought that I would put my thoughts in this hat.

[Sparrowsmith]

The only problem is that layer 1 was never very real at all, but I agree we could do something to keep it alive.
I guess layer 1 becomes 'real' once layer 2 is damaged. If a L2 character says "remember the time we stormed that castle in the haunted forests? If we did that we can do this." then right in saying that they actually did that. It doesn't matter that it was a game because it turns out their whole life has been virtual anyway.
I also still think it would help if a character from L2 was something of a roleplayer. Their way of coping with the whole thing is basically to buy into it completely and just pretend they're doing a quest. It's kind of sad, brings in a L1 character, and it can be funny too.

The three-layered boss sounds good in theory, but it would have to be spread out across three different engines.
Okay, so lets say once the L2 characters are in L3's security systems, they find out the Rogue Program is backing himself up into a locked off version of L1, sort of like he did originally, but this time it's more serious because he'd be able to destroy all the backups. So a few L2 characters journey into L1 to kill him there. Meanwhile the other L2 characters try to lock off any progression the Rogue Program might make from where they are, and also they try to make the turrets stop firing at L3 characters. Eventually the L2 characters find the rogue program and attack it, but it escapes into the robot. Then in L3 they have the final confrontation with the robot (this could theoretically be the toughest battle of them all, because no one in L3 has real combat experience).
The confrontation ends with the L2 characters figuring out how to use the turrets, activating one, and firing upon the Rogue Program as it tries to leave the lab.

Is that multi-layered enough?

[Shaddow]

That is pretty multii-layered ;lol; Here is my reasoning behind what I had said before.

Layer 1 - Cannot actually destroy Rogue Program, but they can 'kill' him for a short period of time, forcing him to hybernate.

Layer 2 - This allows the guys in layer 2 to have a bit more freedom in the security system and make a bit of progress.

Layer 3 - Which deactivates or weakens certain aspects of the Security System, allowing these guys to move on.

Layer 1 - The Rogue Program revives itself and transforms, not really being stronger, just...different.

~Repeat.

That's purely from a plot point perspective. Also, what do you mean multiple systems? I thought it ended up being all done on VX/A just using different sprites/Graphics to represent the other layers?

I imagine it done a bit like Contact for the DS.

[MEands]

If a L2 character says "remember the time we stormed that castle in the haunted forests? If we did that we can do this." then right in saying that they actually did that. It doesn't matter that it was a game because it turns out their whole life has been virtual anyway.

I like this. A lot.

As for the multi layered boss, it could be interesting, but to me it seems a little bit unnecessary. I feel that once the player realizes the game world is fake, they don't return to it.

Maybe in order to destroy the robot they need to hack into the system, which involves using the layer 1 game to destroy an essence. Not playing as the original RPG characters, but being the layer 3 guys using other avatars to fight the program. Then then layer 3 does a bunch of puzzles or something, then the enemy retreats into layer 2 and the characters need to destroy themselves in order to get rid of it.

Or maybe something less sad.

[bulmabriefs144]

As for the multi layered boss, it could be interesting, but to me it seems a little bit unnecessary. I feel that once the player realizes the game world is fake, they don't return to it.

That doesn't add up. As long as there is something to be gained from it, a world is a world, if there are items that can somehow be exported and lands to be explored, and somehow the action matters to the other layers, it actually is playable. (Look at the success of .hack games, the thing consisted of logging in/out of the game, and using chat and forum menus to advances the plot, while the action portion is done in game)

What I might like to see is sorta a mixed party from all layers (you select from some menu) against the final boss, who is affecting all layers in some way (bugging the layer 1, being the rogue program in layer 2, and hacking the computers/robots in layer 3).

[Sparrowsmith]

That's not really how data works, existing on multiple layers at once.
This is why I suggest a three pronged attack.

Some L2 characters go to L1 and fight a backup that the Rogue Program has made.
Other L2 characters fight the actual Rogue Program.
L3 characters fight through puzzles and security systems to stop the Rogue Program escaping the L3 security systems.

L1 battle = success.
L3 battle = success, but the only way to succeed would be to completely shut off the system, killing all the L2 characters, they can't bring themselves to do it, so it all comes down to L2 battle.
L2 battle = At the end of the battle the Rogue Program, though injured, manages to escape into the robot.

There's very little less of the game after that.
Also, if we're really not so sold on the robot, then that could be the end. The L2 battle is a success, and with the backup destroyed, the game is over.

I'd like the game not to end in a fistfight though. I agree it should be action packed, but there are more ways to do that than a big battle. There SHOULD be a big battle, but I don't think it should be right at the end.
That's my opinion though. I just think so long as we're pushing the boat out and experimenting, we shouldn't do a BIG final boss. Most games get more and more ridiculous as time goes on. In the beginning you're just a man facing animals or something, and by the end you're killing a demi-god. I'd like to take a step back. In the 'real' world, the final boss is a fight between ordinary people and something they've created, such as the robot or a security system.
Just my two cents.

[bulmabriefs144]

Well, yea, I was thinking either one lump party, or a multi-stage thing (sorta like the KH2 final battle). Either one would be interesting, but this probably works better.

Sounds good (L3 might not be willing to delete it, but still should be able to hold off the spread of the code/bug by quarantining it). The final battle is still freakishly hard, but during Layer 1/2 battles it was making a bunch of duplicate copies (replicating like any virus would), where now it can't do that anymore.

What about having it more horror themed at the robot section? That is, robot is too strong, you have to instead try to outrun/outmaneuver the robot and various malevolent machines like the turrets and make it to some secondary console with a patch disc (you don't delete the program, but one of the characters in layer 3 has made a bug patch to return the rogue to normal, and he's unfortunately on the other side of the lab). If it's sort of a race against time before the robot traps you, it would have the general feel of a final confrontation without being an actual fistfight. There might be a few chances before this to walk the lab and get the best sense of which way to go, but some areas may be blocked off, forcing you to figure out the best way in the time frame.

From the suggestions, and my own ideas, I'm thinking something like:

Layer 2: Fight Rogue Program. (Makes a bunch of replicates, and generally a nuisance)
Layer 2: (Escapes) Nearby game consoles start spitting out monsters. The characters fight them off, and make it to the console. They can't outright shut it off, or risk losing their level 120+ characters, so they log on as the characters and try to fight from inside.
Layer 1: Fight Rogue Program. (Same tactics)
Layer 1: (Escapes)
Layer 2: Outside, they get attacked once again by the rogue program, which makes huge numbers of copies. (No fight here)
Layer 3: The coders in one room debate of the morality of deleting this thing. In another room they're told by intercom or something, just keep the thing contained to that side that the other programmers will make a patch disc. There's some puzzle where the program is trapped by moving blocks around it in cyberspace (or something).
Layer 2: The quarantine halts its replication and reverts it back to a single location. Instead of like 50 copies of the rogue program, it's now down to one. Fight Rogue Program. (Much easier, as you now only have to fight one target)
Layer 3: Program is now fragmented code (it got smashed up, or something), which takes over the system that was supposed to quarantine it, including its robots and security system. Since the disc was made on a remote computer, this area is unaffected, but the makers of the disc need to get the whole thing to the main computer (through all the obstacles) to recode the program.

It looks more complicated than it is (3 battles vs rogue program, and two puzzles).

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Sep 7 2012, 12:17 PM

[MEands]

What about having it more horror themed at the robot section

I was really hoping for this. Might I give the robot puzzle a go once we reach that point? I enjoy making mysterious creepy situations at times.

And I like where this is going. I was kinda thinking, maybe layer 1 contains a large power source for the rogue program. He really has no real power in layer 2 because it's based on a reality, so maybe he takes the information from layer one and adds it to 2. Perhaps the layer 1 team needs to defeat the energy source (possibly the end boss of L1) in order to stop the monster invasion.

[bulmabriefs144]

(Sorry I haven't posted, but I dunno what to add)

Everything seems okay. Ummm... let's see, maybe we should make a map of what the floor of the building actually looks like? Rooms, traps, puzzles, and passages. Oh, and any changes that result under security lockdown.

[Sparrowsmith]

(Sorry I haven't posted, but I dunno what to add)

Everything seems okay. Ummm... let's see, maybe we should make a map of what the floor of the building actually looks like? Rooms, traps, puzzles, and passages. Oh, and any changes that result under security lockdown.

What if the floor has built in redundancy as a fail safe to the security systems.
Like, you have a main room in the center. It's a mixture of a break room and a working room. Every programmer has their own set of computers/terminals/what have you, and in the center there's a table and chairs for people to talk. Most of the programmers have laptops as well, so they can take their work on the go, and some of them sit at the central table permanently so they can talk to the others easier (lazy bastards).
Anyway. adjacent to this room we have a medical lab of sorts, the room where people plug themselves into the game, a mainframe/cooling room, and the R&D room (the room containing the projects the programming language created, such as the toughest security systems and the robot).

Normally all these rooms would be unlocked, and you could travel anywhere very easily. However, once the security is breached (Rouge Program) and lockdown is initiated, it becomes much harder to move around.
The main room is only accessible from within. You can't get in, only out. Food and supplies can be sent from the lower floors via modern dumbwaiters, so this is a good place to hide in case of a break in. If you leave, you'll be in one of the four other rooms. However, if you're in one of the four other rooms, then you can't go straight to any of the other rooms, you have to make your way down a series of redundant corridors, each of which is fitted with a turret or some other security device, each of which requires a different password and override question.
So if you're trying to break in, it's goddamn impossible, but if you're already inside, it's kinda nice.
Now the problem is, when we do the puzzles, we're stuck in the plug in room, and we have to make it to the main frame, which means going through ALL of the redundant corridors, battling through the security systems, while everyone else just chills out in the main room..

Of course, we could introduce more rooms. The more the merrier, but the concept seems pretty good. If someone breaks in, they'd have to battle through HELL to get anywhere they want to go, meanwhile everyone in the main room is free to do as they please.

[bulmabriefs144]

Mainly we should have a mainframe, and one room that is very secure and offline (possibly a clean room, where changes can be loaded onto a disc without fear of unsecure hacking). And yea, a break room/kitchen, hospital, and a bedroom since this is sort of a self-contained structure, like a military base. On the note of self-contained, maybe they have a greenhouse (and everyone eats tofu and mushrooms for protein).

Minor other rooms, possibly the ones you just mentioned, but for the last puzzle to work we need these two.

This puzzle could work with some sort of health bar, based on hp amount.

Turrets definitely should not be the only issue, pit traps might also be a consideration (especially ones that open and close and have to use some sort of timing or turn something off. There might be virtual terrain too like fake walls, or where it looks like there's no floor but you can cross in certain places (there might be a map somewhere else that you find to cross safely). Walls that close in with spikes or boulders chasing you. The floors should be redundant, but we should definitely mix it up as far as traps go.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Sep 11 2012, 01:29 PM

[Sparrowsmith]

I don't know about having those kind of traps. It's an ultra-modern facility, after all, the traps there will probably be more along the lines of electrified floorboards than boulders. Sound barriers instead of spikes... You get the idea.

[MEands]

Yeah. Perhaps it has a tile floor where certain tiles are actually pressure sensitive plates. They'll trigger traps and such.

Also electricity, lots of it.

[Sparrowsmith]

There could also be pressure traps. Rooms with higher or lower pressures, or temperatures, which must be slowly equalized. This slows down any potential attackers. If you just break into the room, the pressure change would liquidize you.