The First Layer, In-depth Options

[Kaust]

I figured it was time to try and get a little substance behind this project beyond our somewhat vague musings. So here we'll discuss in-depth the first layer and hopefully get a few maps, etc. on the go.
So a little refresher on the first layer;
-its an mmo, its undecided what genre but I think sword and sorcery is the general consideration.
-its the most explicit example of 'game-within-a-game' and should reflect that: its not bound by the conventions of reality, and the characters are aware of this.
-we need to decide on a specific engine; I advocated VX and VXA for layers one and two for their similarity in graphics, enforcing the whole ga(game)me motif but I'm easy like Lionel Richie. All I ask if you want to change this is provide a reason other than you simply want it that way.

So discuss away on anything you would like to see included; but try to keep it in line with the plot discussed here http://www.rpgrevolution.com/forums/index....=56326&st=0

[Sparrowsmith]

Thank you Kaust I was just thinking this topic needed to be made.

I definitely think that any puzzles in this layer should be group orientated. I can think of at least three ways to event (in VX) puzzles that require player-switching to complete. As far as plot goes though, I was thinking sort of like a WoW raid. I've never played WoW, but I have a vague idea of what one is, and I imagine it's something our characters would enjoy. Storm a castle, solve some puzzles, kill the bad guy...

I'm also torn between whether they talk via text, or whether they talk through microphones and we just happen to see what they're saying...

[Kaust]

I was thinking more text box orientated like this:
 rangda.png ( 740.93K ) Number of downloads: 47

It would also be an easy way to add to the illusion of other players as we could just add stuff to it at intervals as if people were talking.
Mics would be cool and could be a good way to get more people involved (just have everyone say a little something, kinda like the cameos we're doing), but I think it'd be hard to find the balance between too much and too little speech, whereas the text box is more passive.

Also I was thinking that maybe we dont have control over the whole party in this layer, as if the others were also players but that could get difficult/frustrating if going on for too long.

[Darkblade]

Heres a rough concept design of the kind of area I imagined the starting dungeon to be in.
From what I remember the prisoners keep asking to be saved even once rescued?
Maybe the characters should have a quest description that doesn't fully match up to the location they've traveled to.
Kind of to hint that something isn't completely right.

[Show/Hide] red sky season

Admitedly, the perspective and sizing isnt great.

[bulmabriefs144]

Hmmm, you'd have to make some sort of custom code. It recreates the text messing with the illusion of slow scrolling.

When should they start? In town? In the middle of a field? In a dungeon? In the final dungeon with a "how did we get here" flashback?

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 15 2012, 01:44 PM

[Sparrowsmith]

Heres a rough concept design of the kind of area I imagined the starting dungeon to be in.
From what I remember the prisoners keep asking to be saved even once rescued?
Maybe the characters should have a quest description that doesn't fully match up to the location they've traveled to.
Kind of to hint that something isn't completely right.

[Show/Hide] red sky season

Admitedly, the perspective and sizing isnt great.

Me likey.
My original idea was that they are having a dramatic pep talk just before storming the castle/dungeon. The illusion that this is 'real' should be there, but at the same time it should also seem like a game to those paying attention.

Same goes for the text. It should seem 'real' but also like it's a game.
Getting the balance just right is key here. Overshooting or undershooting could kill the project.

[thatbennyguy]

The idea of group puzzles is a good one. You should have the option for the player to switch between his four party members (who are displayed physically as four sprites, instead of one). You could have switches where they act cooperatively to open gates and free fair maidens (as per the plot). Advancing through the dungeon, with various tropes such as visible level-ups, buffs, skill requirements ("your skill is too low to equip this sword... oh man!") and other doohickeys.

[MEands]

I really like all these ideas, but let me just offer a couple critiques on them

[Show/Hide] Dialogue Boxes

I do like the idea of having a more mmo type text system, the only thing is we need to make sure it isn't too obvious that it's a game.
If we do it right it could just seem like an interesting gimmick.
I was thinking we could do something along the lines of Runescape (probably a bad example, i dont play many mmo's), but like, every action is displayed on a list, and when another thing happens then it will be added to the text list, something like this.

_______________________
Swordsman: Hey I need some help here! (Your teammate would say with low health)
Bat used Poisin Fang
Swordsman attacked Bat
Wizard opened treasure chest.
Cleric: Where did you go?
_______________________

Something that kinda looks like an mmo maybe?
We just need to make sure it doesn't look like an mmo immitation. It has to seem somewhat real.

[Show/Hide] Group Puzzles

I do like this idea, the only thing is I wonder if we're implementing group puzzles a little too soon.
The way I think of it, as we go up in layers we somewhat go up in intelligence as well.
Like, the game characters are not even real, they're just computers.
Once we get to layer 2 they're more intelligent, because of their programming
Layer 3 has the very intelligent ones who programmed the game themselves.

I just think that the higher in intelligence we get the more difficult of puzzles we should do. idk if group puzzles will be too complex too soon in this game.

EDIT: As for layers, if we can't decide on anything for a specific reason, we might as well use vxa, the new system will attract more users I feel.

This post has been edited by MEands: May 15 2012, 03:21 PM

[thatbennyguy]

I was thinking we could do something along the lines of Runescape (probably a bad example, i dont play many mmo's)

I agree that we don't want to clutter up the space with text-boxes, and try to make it a "realistic" MMO, because that is just confusing. But I believe we should make a representation of an MMO, that isn't exactly like an MMO, per se, but is similar to an MMO. I mean that Layer 1 shares qualities of an MMO, but does not behave entirely like an MMO.

I do like this idea, the only thing is I wonder if we're implementing group puzzles a little too soon.
The way I think of it, as we go up in layers we somewhat go up in intelligence as well.

I disagree on this point. I think that the characters of the 3 layers are all equally intelligent, but they are just not self-realized yet. The Layer 1 individuals are 1-dimensional characters, with obvious intentions and simple ambitions. Life is simple for them, good guys are always good, evil guys are always evil. Simple morality, simple good vs. evil story, we are raiding the evil dungeon to save good people and kill the evil monsters. It's a simple world.

The Layer 2 individuals realize that morality is not quite as simple as the public thinks, it's almost as if the whole world is in a dream state. For example, if the group of friends asks the simulated people about a programmer, they'll say "What programmer?" and move on. If you persist in asking them what is the problem, they will try to put you back in your place, so as not to question the environment you are put in. The perfect example of this is THE TRUMAN SHOW.

Layer 3 individuals are 3-dimensional, knowing both good and evil in the cruel, harsh world of reality. These characters display both good and evil qualities, in the "real" world with "real" people. But the reality is, the 2d world is the best world that exists. People are not cynical there, no bigotry happens. People are scripted to be at peace with the world, something that Layer 3 could learn from. I would imagine that Layer 3 characters will learn from their Layer 2 creations to help become better people, and less cynical etc.

But yeah, I don't believe it's a matter of intelligence, per se, but rather the nature of their character.

[shinyjiggly]

I disagree on this point. I think that the characters of the 3 layers are all equally intelligent, but they are just not self-realized yet. The Layer 1 individuals are 1-dimensional characters, with obvious intentions and simple ambitions. Life is simple for them, good guys are always good, evil guys are always evil. Simple morality, simple good vs. evil story, we are raiding the evil dungeon to save good people and kill the evil monsters. It's a simple world.

The Layer 2 individuals realize that morality is not quite as simple as the public thinks, it's almost as if the whole world is in a dream state. For example, if the group of friends asks the simulated people about a programmer, they'll say "What programmer?" and move on. If you persist in asking them what is the problem, they will try to put you back in your place, so as not to question the environment you are put in. The perfect example of this is THE TRUMAN SHOW.

You know, I was totally thinking about that movie in relation to layer two, especially with one of the scenes taking place on an incomplete beach.

Back to the correct layer, I whipped up a sketch of a small part of an area in a town.

[Show/Hide] concept pic!

What sorts of other building motifs should be on houses and buildings? Also, what other radically different building types could be featured in other towns?

[Kaust]

Reading some of the posts I think there is some confusion, I'll try to clear it up.
-Layer one is a game that the layer two characters are consciously playing; they adhere to certain laws (they cant fly unless thats a part of the game, for example), but morality is not a big issue unless their roleplayers as well. They should make references that will confuse the player to things like their outside life, etc. just not too heavy-handedly (possibly things like "You still seeing that girl later?" that are layerally ambiguous).
-The characters of layers one and two are the same (personality-wise, and for ease of recognition will likely have some similar characteristics physically, ie red spiky hair or whatever). Layer 3 is the closest to our reality, its sorta the point where the player kicks themselves for not realising layer two was also a game and start questioning the possibility of a fourth, and so on, layer.
Anyways, these points are not up for discussion here, please go to the Plot thread for any variations you'd like to see on what I just posted.

Shiny has made two very important points; we need to establish the environment and also any distinct art style we might want to use (I'd suggest overt pixellation but it may drive people away), and this is also why I mentioned engines; though we'll likely use some custom graphics I dont doubt many contributors will use the rtp which have distinct looks (and VXs blockiness could again work in our favour if we were to try pixellation).

[thatbennyguy]

Oops, sorry Kaust, I'll try not to bring story into this thread. I kind of imagined the art cute and pixely like Spelunky. Or something like the dungeons in FFIV. In fact, that's probably the very thing we're parodying, is it?

[Kaust]

Don't worry about it Benny, I appreciate it can be hard not to; the two are intrinsically linked and so any changes to one potentially affects the other. Expressing any and all ideas are beneficial and communication is a must on such a large-scale project, it just helps to try and keep things organised a bit =]

[Sparrowsmith]

Don't worry about it Benny, I appreciate it can be hard not to; the two are intrinsically linked and so any changes to one potentially affects the other. Expressing any and all ideas are beneficial and communication is a must on such a large-scale project, it just helps to try and keep things organised a bit =]

Kaust is right. We want input, this is a big project, but we've got to keep input to the right areas man this is all getting complicated.

I just realised now that we could use 'associated colours' to represent the three layers. Layer 1 is a game, a pretty violent game, so I'm thinking red. Layer 2 is meant to appear natural (truman style) so green? And Layer 3 is quite a cold world, mechanical, computers, etc, so maybe blue.

I'm not saying we make the colours too obvious, just as a general colour scheme, mood setting, symbolism, that kind of thing.

[Kaust]

I'm not a fan of colour schemes; it comes off as a very two-dimensional motif unless the project is in some way relevant to colours (like the significance of rainbows in Kirby, for example), as well as the colour's 'meaning' being unique to individuals(red for hate could also be red for love).

But, as ever, if others are into the idea and we can accomplish it tastefully then it has my backing.

[bulmabriefs144]

So far these sketches are pretty good. As I asked before, where do we start? The beginning position adds context, for example:

• Bar- Characters discuss their plans, and open with their specific motivations. A group plan is formed. However, it's also done a zillion times in Dungeons & Dragons
• Around Town- Characters meet up, or a villain crosses their path. Actually somewhat uncommon to just start with events in town.
• Far, Far Away- Big splashy prologue, with villains discussing their plans, wars happening, or comets hitting Earth. Kinda doesn't work for a game where the initial premise is actually fake, but it can be done to lend to a good trick story.
• Field- The characters explore some area one day, and happen upon some mysterious people doing nefarious things.
• First Dungeon- This is a standard in alot of RpgMaker RPGS. But unless done well, with character development, it kinda leaves flat characters (okay if the game isn't real, but it might be a bad idea to reveal this too early)
• Forest- Usually the lost variety. Often has elements of How Did We Get Here and the Field.
• Final Dungeon- There's three varieties:
  1. How Did We Get Here- A flashback from the final dungeon. Often with the twist that the final dungeon really isn't there's one more.
  2. Final Dungeon, But New Story- Lufia, Fortress of Doom is a good example. They start from where Lufia II actually ended, and then show a later generation fighting off the threat. (The example here would simply be starting at the final dungeon, and after beating the big bad, the game turns out to be a game)
  3. Recurring Motif- Kingdom Hearts sorta has this. The final dungeon is just a dream, or perhaps is the hero's home, which shows up later in the story.

The starting position can make or break an RPG. I've discarded several dozen RPGs just because they started wrong making for bad character development.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 16 2012, 10:40 AM

[Sparrowsmith]

I didn't mean it to be too bold, just a general motif. Like, it's a red evening in layer 1, and everything is lit by fire. Layer 2 is mostly day time, and I imagined it being more picturesque, so flowers, grass, sand (I'm lumping yellow with green). Layer 3 is very modern, so I thought blue.

Maybe not my best idea, it's just a theme to help us art it up.
Layer 1 is old and rusted.
Layer 2 is fresh and welcoming
Layer 3 is cold and modern.

To bring it back, that means layer 1 is quite a dark place. The ground is muddy, the houses are wooden and rusted. The castle they raid is draped with purple and gold banners over grey walls and brown steps. Red and orange flames flicker. The nature around the area is decayed and rotting.

[thatbennyguy]

Layer 1 is old and rusted.
Layer 2 is fresh and welcoming
Layer 3 is cold and modern.

This seems good. Although I imagined this:
Layer 1 - happy and ignorant
Layer 2 - content and tolerant
Layer 3 - depressed and cynical

[shinyjiggly]

Perhaps layer 1 could look more of a nostalgic old than a ruins old? You must remember that it's a game targeted toward the interests of The Child so they most likely wouldn't make everything look crazy grotesque and tired (though that would be cool, I don't think that style would work for what we're trying to shoot for), they would try to make it look inviting but with its own sort of ancient charm permeating pretty much everything.
I would envision layer 1 with its own invented history that may or may not ever be told in-game, but with its effects that could be seen nearly everywhere. For example, the great random but slightly important airship battle of 3536 BG (Before Gameplay) may have caused a terrible airship crash, leading to an entire village eventually being built upon the grounded wreckage or something like that.

[Sparrowsmith]

We should remember though, for the layer 2 heroes, layer 1 is the end of a big journey. They have leveled up, they have prepared for this moment, to them, this is a big bad guy.
Not the biggest bad guy of all, but a big one. The way online games build up boss battles. The area around the boss should probably reflect that. I'm not saying we make it grotesque, but if it's all peaceful and rustic then we don't get the sense of urgency we want.

Remember, the player will be seeing this as some big game changing moment. Something big is going down. We can't pull that off with a first dungeon, or a peaceful little village. We need the characters focused on some big challenge, that way it'll be believable that this is real.
At the same time, if we overdo it then it's cliche.

So yeah, we really have to build an atmosphere of urgency, but without it being too dark I guess.
I really do like the idea of them being gathered around a fire, discussing what they're about to do. The sky is either a dark blue or dark red. The moon glows behind them and to the right, where we can also see the castle/dungeon. We get a chance to see the characters talk, and learn what's going on.