handling.. realism?, kind of a rant js Options

[Tsureiyu]

AYE GUYS!

so yeah. currently the project i'm working on is supposed to kinda avoid or emphasize tropes, and well, be more realistic.
like.. who actually placed a random chest containing convenient leveled weapons behind a tree? d:

and when characters are already wearing a badass costume you don't really go to the shop to buy some basic iron armor and equip that.. even if most of the time you don't actually see it in games, it's kinda.. off idk. :/
the characters i'm making have really specific-looking appearances anyways.

Gameplay and story segregation anyone xD

The FF13 way would just be to equip accessories and weapons.
What do you guys think of just removing armor altogether? And maybe go with the skill tree system and use passives to increase DEF etc.
Might need to explain treasure chests as well.. :/

the type of thing i'm going for actually makes it complicated going with traditional RPG elements, which might be harder.

This post has been edited by Tsureiyu: Jan 20 2013, 08:39 PM

[Magical_RuNE_Kni...]

Ahahaha, ikr. XDD Xp
I tried doing something/ thinking like that for my own game, but if u think about it, a lot of consideration and work would have to b done.

Things like healing items for example, u might need to change them to bandages or something. Or like how to explain monsters, skimpy gear in the freezing cold, why u have a party, etc. it can be pretty difficult. I kinda think theres a limit to the realism u can get in games just cuz they aint real to begin w/. : p

I like the idea of the status-boosting item/ weapon/ skill though. o/ as in, i think getting rid of armor can and would definitely work. Actually... i think it works better/ makes more sense than having it. Especially since in real life, id hope u would not wear random shirts u find in wooden boxes.. d:

Although.. costume-type armor would still b cool, and maybe u could even get armor to match specific environment types for a boost. o.o Like getting special armor for mountain regions boosts movement speed, desert armor gives heat resistance, etc.
hmm. Im starting to rly like this idea. -D-

This post has been edited by Magical_RuNE_Knight2001: Jan 21 2013, 02:14 AM

[Kaust]

Well you could always make alternate sprites for characters wearing different armor. This would be kind of complex if you did it for like all accessories or whathaveyou, but its actually very simple to make a common event for if you just used one or two variable for more distinct weapons and armour (As well as actually doing the necessary spriting, although after doing the groundwork it would be a matter of mixing and matching).
Anyways, this is something I wish I saw in more games, but I've shirked from it in my own endeavours so I understand its a lot of work for 'just a nice touch'.

I dont think you should go over-board trope hunting; suspension of disbelief is a part of the game experience. If you're forcing players to constantly question why this or why that is in a game, all their going to ask is why they are even playing your game. Don't try and shed light, don't preach, at most you want it to feel like an inside joke now and then because players have probably thought about this stuff before, just referencing the absurdity of the gameworld once in a while is enough to reignite their own thoughts.

And really, if you are so focussed on 'realism' then how is some magical skill tree in a pause menu more realistic than steadily equipping superior equipment? Stronger armour wouldn't change a person's (lets call them base stats) but you would unquestionably have better defence than with poorer armour, the same would apply for better quality weapons.
Changing equipment is fairly realistic I would say, over other things like 'levelling up' (which a skill tree is just another form of). If you wanted a 'realistic' method of controlling how players access the equipment then focus on balancing the party's economy over the course of the story instead of their experience. This would also remove the trope of having conveniently levelled equipment in shops, as you could have all the equipment on display all the time its just a matter of saving up for it.

This post has been edited by Kaust: Jan 21 2013, 03:05 AM

[Tsureiyu]

LOOL, Runeknight. xD
i was planning to include more than one outfit the characters wear (for different climates/purposes etc) but it'll be a lot more work, and with Minkoff battlers too. :/

Kaust, i guess it's true that games aren't meant to be realistic, but it really depends on the level of "cartoonyness"- more anime like games (Tales) wouldn't think twice about including a convenient final weapon chest right before the final boss. But in games like FF13 and also Dragon Age 2 the characters mostly wear the same outfit without an actual "armor" slot.
Now it's tough explaining the random magical skill tree.. but it could be some form of meditation, i guess. or as you said, just suspension of disbelief; i still find it mildly more reasonable than conveniently leveled armor. I probably won't try to blatantly avert like, every single RPG trope in the book, just cut down on a few and lampshade others.

I think it would be okay and actually nice for the party to happen across a corpse laying around with a useful piece of equipment on it, and have the characters comment on it. But take for example when let's say.. a knight captain guy or something joins your party already wearing heavy, fancy armor. i don't think you're going to find better equipment in a chest/shop within moments of him joining your party and having him equip that instead. d:

Visual equipment might be difficult with animated battlers though, hm. for XP there was Atoa's system that came with animated battlers visual equipment, but i don't think there's one like that for VX and VX Ace.. :/
Atleast different weapons could have different appearances, because it's probably more often someone changes their weapon than their clothing/armor.

[ZarroTsu]

"Realism" should ~always~ be present in an RPG anyway. Not in the '9-to-5 accounting job' sense, but in the 'people bleed blood and not raspberry jam' sense.

"Removing Armor" isn't going to aspire to realism, as real-life... HAS armor. Maybe we don't walk around in knight suits anymore, but we both continue to have functioning versions on historic display, and our modern-day 'armor' takes its place to defend against modern-day 'weapons'.

Since we decided crossbows were a hell of a lot more effective than a sword, we've moved up to guns of various shapes and sizes, and in real-life our armor acts to defend against guns and fire specifically. Kevlar vests are the modern-day 'armor', used specifically to defend against high-speed projectiles.

Other things you've exampled are things you can explain, regardless of time-era in your game. "Who put this junk in a chest out here?" Have an npc somewhere say 'I hear a great bandit stashed his treasure in a chest out in the woods. I wonder what it is?' to then explain the chest. Chests are safe-keeping trunks of personal objects, whether you're a kid with a toy chest holding all your toys, or an adult with a safe holding jewelry and other valuables.

The best thing you can do to aspire 'realism' in your game is simply research how it works in real life. That's it. You can still fight slimes with broadswords, or three-headed dogs in hell with a slingshot, so long as you both research the actual history behind the weapons and anatomy of the characters involved, as well as give plausible explanation behind the magical weapons left in the game. In fact, the only thing that makes an RPG, by your definition, "unrealistic", is the inability to explain every element present in the game. Which you CAN do. It's called "Lore".

Many old games had creators who gave a damn about their work, and assorted a lot of books and other materials across their game to actually give a written explaination of what was what. You could proceed and beat the game without ever once picking up a book, but if you actually played along (read: role-played in the role-playing game), you could be treated to an actual article of the anatomy and origin of the "slime". It's all a matter of explaining everything. That's all you have to do.

Just... don't shove it down the player's throat. If we don't -need- to know it to continue playing along in your game, then don't tell us unless we search for it (books instead of event-driven word of mouth). If you're too proud of your research, you'll confuse and distract from your game, and cause players to stop playing.

This post has been edited by ZarroTsu: Jan 22 2013, 07:02 AM

[Soryn]

I strongly agree about adding lore into a game. Far too few developers actually take the time to include this into their games. It's easy to do (other than writing the lore itself) and goes a long way to helping with player immersion.

As far as randomly placed chests and stuff, just don't randomly place them... Ask yourself "why is this chest here?" when you place it. If you can't find a good reason for it being there other than to give the player some random item, then create a logical reason though lore or other means. I personally love the old RPGs where items are hidden all over and you had to check pots, barrels, etc. To me, it makes much more sense that someone would hide an item in something like that rather than a chest in plain view that should have been picked over by now.

As far as armor goes, I can see it being removed from a game. But, once again, lore can give you a reason for having different armor. It's standard and fully believable. What might not be believable is who you allow to wear certain types of armor. That is easily rectified though,

Everything can be explained fully through lore or suspension of disbelief. And like Zarro said, don't force it on the player unless its directly related to the plot. There's no need to forcibly explain why certain things are the way they are. You could however hint at it and let the user find the lore for it on their own. I personally love it when I see a bookshelf in a game and I can actually pick up a book or read a passage from one. Too many games just put bookshelves in just for looks and room filling. Or they don't give any real lore, just meaningless drivel similar to that one guy in almost every JRPG town near the entrance that welcomes you to the town.

[Tsureiyu]

o; thanks for the feedback guys.
it does make sense that people would wear armor to protect themselves, but just by looking at the visual representation of the characters, you can see they already are wearing armor, so buying armor from a store wouldn't make much sense. (Especially when the protagonists are supposed to be equipped better than the average person that buys equipment from a store.) While in a game like Monster Hunter the characters are pretty much anonymous/normal people who would need to change armor over time, in a more traditional RPG the characters already seem to have equipment suited for them and the in-game "armor" is gameplay/story segregation.

I'm not completely against the chest idea- the characters will need to find loot here and there, i just don't want it to seem random and pointless; as Soryn suggested, maybe it can be found outside of chests too (like in a barrel) so not every chest needs an explanation. (and is that an Aion dp?)

the advice on lore is helpful though; thanks guys. (Y) i'll definately be including readable books and such to expand on lore, it does seem like a good idea anyways. And i'll need to think about finding the right amount of lampshading.

well, i don't think i'll be including armor at the moment. Phantasy Star Universe has the line shields though, which don't really affect your appearance and are pretty justified (they're force fields in the form of different colored TRON lines that run along your clothing, which you can choose.) Not sure if i'm going with something like that though, we'll see.

btw. i know i'm kinda ranting about the whole armor and chest thing, but thanks for replies again xD

[ZarroTsu]

well, i don't think i'll be including armor at the moment. Phantasy Star Universe has the line shields though, which don't really affect your appearance and are pretty justified

Yeah but they aren't really explained. I don't remember any npc from the game talking about them even, they were just armor to tack onto your (interchangeable) clothes. That somehow made you survive a punch to the face by a dark god twelve times your size.

If your entire anti-realism beef with armor is it not affecting the visual sprite, then that's kind of really dorky. If your armor is delt with correctly, the player can always just assume every set of armor your dude buys looks the same, or goes under whatever they're wearing. BUT if you're really that nitpicky, why not just make a custom sprite for every armor piece? Or, and I'm not sure how possible this is in VX/A script, overlay a second spriteset (armor-only) on top of the character?

This post has been edited by ZarroTsu: Jan 22 2013, 08:40 PM

[Soryn]

Or, and I'm not sure how possible this is in VX/A script, overlay a second spriteset (armor-only) on top of the character?

That is how I handle armor... paperdoll system... I have the main naked sprite with separate parts being the hair, eyes, helm, chest piece, gloves, legs, feet and back. I use the taller sprites so this works out just fine, but it would still be fine using the super chibi 32x32 sprites as well if you removed a few things that would be too small to notice/separate.

An alternative realistic version for this would be to have the characters each have their own armor... and at certain points in the game, or when they have enough money, or whatever other reason you want, allow them to visit a blacksmith or something to get their armor upgraded/fortified/reinforced/whatever. Kind of like adding a +1 to an item. This allows you to let your characters both have armor and upgrade it without having to worry about a change in appearance or lack thereof.

[Tsureiyu]

Nah, i'm just saying that you can assume the characters, in the lore, already have their own armor, so it doesnt make sense to buy armor from a store. not sure about weapons, but it should be easier to get clothing/armor than weapons anyways.

Visual equipment doesn't really work in Minkoff battlers except using Atoa's battle system for RMXP.. or atleast that's all i've seen so far. which would be an issue with pretty much all equipment :/

[ZarroTsu]

Then you can just, instead of new weapons/armor, have some smiths that can sharpen the weapon or reenforce the armor, to a maximum level depending on the smith. Then in that case it just uses events to replace with a different weapon of the same, or similar name.

ex. "Dragon Sword" -> "Dragon Sword lv 2" or "Dragon Sword" -> "Star Dragon Sword".

[LockeZ]

Realism in a video game stops being useful when it prevents you from making the gameplay as engaging as it would be without the realism. You can generally find a way to halfway-explain almost anything. But, for example, the idea of being able to heal your wounds at all without spending weeks in the hospital is very unrealistic. But healing is an extremely common trope that RPGs rely on, so we create an item called "first aid kit" that basically works like a magic spell and heals gunshot victims to perfect health in seconds. Calling it a first aid kit doesn't make it any more realistic than calling it a potion - if something heals all your wounds in seconds, the idea that it's magic is actually more believable than the idea that it's modern medicine. What it does do is help to build a setting and motif in your game, that this is a world where magic doesn't exist, and the player just has to suspend his disbelief about the effectiveness of bandages.

Getting new armor as the game goes on isn't a big deal. First of all, no one's gonna look twice at you for doing so, because everyone does it. But secondly, and probably more importantly, it's actually totally realistic to wear clothes outside of your armor, and also totally realistic to decorate your new armor the same way as your old armor, and also totally realistic to get defensive equipment upgrades that are more subtle than full platemail, like maybe just new gauntlets or new armor lining. So if you wanna get rid of it for gameplay reasons, go ahead, but if you're changing your core gameplay systems just because you don't think you can fit them into the story, you need a better excuse. There are situations where gameplay and story need to be built to reflect one-another, where you want to create overarching themes that fill the game, like limiting backtracking in a game that's about being chased or handling nonlinearity differently in a game that's about free will vs. predestination, but what you're doing is just an excuse for a lack of a rudimentary amount of imagination.

Tropes aren't bad. They're just conventions. Your game is going to have things in common with other games - that's what a genre is. It helps players out as much as it helps you. They see a familiar system, and they don't have to learn it.

[Tsureiyu]

^

Hm.. those are actually some good ideas. o;
Subtle armor improvements and strengthening would work.

I do realize it's an RPG so it will have things in common with other RPGs, but i feel like it could still be more explained in the tropes it uses, through dialogue or books.
anyways, guess i have a better idea about what i'll do in general, thanks (Y)

[Soryn]

Subtle armor improvements and strengthening would work.

Pretty much what I said in the latter part of my previous post. Think you might have missed that though. Anyway, I've played several games that use that style of weapon/armor enhancement instead of changing armor all the time. It saves you from making a ton of equipment that you might not really want or need while still allowing the player to upgrade their gear... provided that they meet the requirement(s) to upgrade said items if you set them.

I still prefer a paperdoll system myself, but knowing the limitations of RM, ts not easy to accomplish. Either way works though since equipment should never detract from the main game only add to it.

[evindom]

Another route you might consider taking is that used by the Fire Emblem games. In that series there is only a limited number of weapons, each belonging to a specific category that is strong versus some weapon types and weak against others.. Each weapon has a set durability that is reduced every time it is used in battle, when it runs out, you lose the weapon. Rare, ultimate weapons have to be reserved for important battles while more common items (i.e iron sword) are used in regular encounters. Early weapons tend to have a higher hit rate and are easier to use. Higher level weapons require more skill to use and have less durability, but posses correspondingly higher power. This mechanic forces players to play strategically, choosing the right weapon for the right foe, and eliminates the RPG trope of the 1001 disposable weapons. The basic longsword still has significant use even at the end of the game (killing high level axe wielders cheaply...), even if its not the weapon of choice for every battle.
As for visual sprites, character armor is linked to class; front line fighter wear plate all the time, they don't start out in leathers and work their way up. At set points in the games, characters have the option of improving their class, gaining new abilities and changing their sprite to reflect their new roles. In this fashion characters can be trained from simple scouts or pikemen to heavily armored knights and hoplites without the need for armor slots. The Fire Emblem series also limited the number of items a character could carry into battle to three to five. This increased the difficulty of the game. and forced players to balance their desire for weapons against the need to heal and/or loot enemy corpses.
Finally, Fire Emblem's characters were mortal. When they fell in battle they DIED. The player was treated to a nice little death scene and then that character was gone FOREVER. To say that this mechanic drastically altered play style would be a serious understatement. There is litterally nothing worse in a game than to win a difficult battle only to watch your favorite character choke on their own blood because of the decisions you as the player made. It gave a level of realism to the series that is largely unmatched in other games of its era. I hope my fan=boyish rant has been some help to you, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[amerk]

evindom, something like that would work best if the player can swap out weapons, armor, and perhaps even characters. Otherwise, the chance is high you'll be with a near useless weapon against a high profile enemy, and once that weapon breaks, you're character would become practically useless unless they have other backup provisions (skills, items) they can use.

Then again, I typically prefer games that let me swap in and out weapons, armor and characters regardless of the mechanics behind the game, and don't understand why this is not allowed by default.

[userjosh704]

Want realism in a fantasy game o.O? Suppose your natural stats barely increase except HP and MP, and just get all your stats through your magic gear? Keep the numbers low too. Like starting ATK could be around 8 and the highest ATK could be 99. Get creative with your damage formulas.

[Renkai141]

Don't get me wrong wen I say this, I dislike comparing games with others.
But, if I may interrupt with a quick idea of realism, I think somewhere along the line of Final Fantasy 10 or 12(licence or stat system)
customizing where or how the player manages to see on how they want their character to grow.

It is alright if they could wear the same armor for a long time or maybe just ALL the time, if you really want to match that within the games/realism factor, I think it would be best using some of these systems where status control could take over the Equipment system overall(if it follows the traditional level system of course).

Just giving it a whole different outlook on exactly what you're aiming for.

quick example :
Weapon : Gun (would probably the only thing constantly changing)
Headgear :Headphones
(if it's character design, change the things INSIDE the headphones, not the overall look)
Maybe even give it different buffs, of "It's the same headphones, you won't tell the difference but it has different effects".

Shirt :Leather Jacket, Made of different types of leathers- or building in a skill tree that allows it to give more buffs(item levels)(ATK)
Leather jacket : stat points +2, atk increase by 3- Next : 6.
(and some other atk variety somewhere around like)
Attack of ranged weps +2, Attack of closed ranged +4(u get the idea).Or somewhere of- Attack against big enemies +15%. Mix em both who knows?
Pants :Skinny jeans(item levels, such as more resistance against a certain element or physical atks/magic/special)(DEF)
Defense = 4, next level = 8.
Def against ranged weps = 9(such and such)
Shoes :Boots
Acc: Gloves

Hopefully that explains a bit of what's going on in my crazy mind right now. I just sometimes love mixing around the whole idea of status and how they would affect the character without highly changing their appearance/or re-working a sprite just in case if they're wearing something different.