In many games there is a job system, or multiple class's for the player to choose from. I would like some opinions on this.
also I can only have one party member in my party.
In my game at the moment, I have a few characters, they have there OWN class, and if the player wants to be a certain class they have to find the character in the game and play there SHORT story(more of a side quest).
something else
I may change it to where the player may choose at the beginning of the game what character he wants and he can then do his characters story(side quest).
I was thinking that maybe it would be better if I have one character and you choose a class at the beginning of the game and later when you get to a city you can talk to the combat trainer to change class's if you would like.
I'm in a state where I need to get this sorted before I move on, but I wanted some other opinions about this before I proceed so that I can get a feel about the players opinion on class's in games.
There's no such thing as "too many classes" in your game, so long as each has a distinct differing factor, the more distinct the better.
Take a look at final fantasy 1. You had the Fighter, the dude who uses swords, the Monk, the dude who punches things, the Thief, the glass-cannon (who is actually really bad at his job, mind you), the Black Mage, the dude who blows things up, the White Mage, the dude who heals others, and the Red Make, the dude who jacks all trades, but masters none.
FF3 through 5 added on to this, resulting in 5 being an insane amount of fun in how well you could learn and combine class traits, effectively making decisions infinite and the game replayable as fuck.
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Now, the general idea is to take these as concept of unique function and apply it as classes in your game. However, in order to make this system 'good', each class needs a specific use that not only makes it distinct, but makes it desirable. If your play testers become frustrated by being unable to decide which classes they should use, this is actually a GOOD thing, since it means they consider all classes distinct and well-balanced enough to be worth playing.
So there's a few things you need to do:
1) As I said twice now, each class needs to be "distinct" - this goes for the stat bonuses the class offers, the unique skills the class learns (and you really should try to have every class learn its own unique skills; a "doesn't learn any attacks!" class is really boring, unless it's a berserker, and a berserker that is WORTH USING), and/or a unique visual graphic to determine the difference.
2) Balance the everloving fuck out of the classes. This is the hard part, as you genuinely need to replay your game over and over to test everything, and try to keep all the classes equal, without making them all too similar or all useless.
3) Ask yourself whether or not classes will be static or dynamic. A "Static" class would be one that your character can change into, but will not retain any skills or abilities if and when they change to another. A "Dynamic" class would be one that they can learn, say, a fire spell as a mage, and from that point on be able to use it as a fighter. (Keep in mind if you do decide on dynamic classes, you need to carefully determine prerequisites the player needs to fulfill to permanently learn skills for use outside that class title)
4) Since you want classes to be unique to each party member, remember to balance things to keep every character unique as well as their classes. It is better for a player to love the diversity each party member gives than having one or two characters be completely useless and/or undesirable that they might task with item duty.
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I recommend playing Final Fantasy 5 some time (assuming you haven't) to see a great class system in action. If you cannot track down the game (and lord knows you can't because SquareSoft secretly hates you), you can read a Let's Play HERE to give yourself a general understanding of, again, a really damn good class system that you should aspire to.
This post has been edited by ZarroTsu: Nov 10 2012, 08:43 PM
I played final fantasy 5, I got farther into than others. I didn't start thinking about class's till just, and I wasn't going to make them a big thing, but after reading that, the class's could play a big part in a game, thanks for the feed back, I will defiantly keep this post open while I write out my now complicated class system..
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I actually am using a class system in my game as well. One thing I found is that you, not only, need to worry about what classes and how to make them unique, but a fun way to get them. Something you need to consider is fun side quests for each of these, make sure the quest is worth it, not just the class itself.
something I did in mine to make things unique, even though I have four characters who can be any of 10 classes, plus their unique default class. Is use subclasses, so you can mix and match skills and weapon uses. The main class can use anything from the class, weapons, armor, stats and skills, while the sub class gets the skills and weapon proficiencies only.
Another thing I did, is make it so skills are purchased with JP, this allows the player to improve the class how they feel, not when I think they should get it. It allows them to use strategy in class training. They can only learn JP for the primary class they are, not the sub class. But they can switch at any time outside of battle, to mix and match on the fly and allow them to adjust to any situation.
While the players can eventually have access to every class with all four characters it is not easy to find. There are 4 books for each class, one per player to teach them, and they are spread through-out the world in quests and sometimes chests for the player to find. This allows for a large party dynamic and a lot of in battle strategy.
Sorry, it feels like I just talked about my game, but I'm hoping this gives you some ideas on how you can do this in your own game too.
I actually am using a class system in my game as well. One thing I found is that you, not only, need to worry about what classes and how to make them unique, but a fun way to get them. Something you need to consider is fun side quests for each of these, make sure the quest is worth it, not just the class itself.
something I did in mine to make things unique, even though I have four characters who can be any of 10 classes, plus their unique default class. Is use subclasses, so you can mix and match skills and weapon uses. The main class can use anything from the class, weapons, armor, stats and skills, while the sub class gets the skills and weapon proficiencies only.
Another thing I did, is make it so skills are purchased with JP, this allows the player to improve the class how they feel, not when I think they should get it. It allows them to use strategy in class training. They can only learn JP for the primary class they are, not the sub class. But they can switch at any time outside of battle, to mix and match on the fly and allow them to adjust to any situation.
While the players can eventually have access to every class with all four characters it is not easy to find. There are 4 books for each class, one per player to teach them, and they are spread through-out the world in quests and sometimes chests for the player to find. This allows for a large party dynamic and a lot of in battle strategy.
Sorry, it feels like I just talked about my game, but I'm hoping this gives you some ideas on how you can do this in your own game too.
I would use sub class's but I think that would require scripting? I havent worked on class's at all in Ace. Bout all I have done in ace is map. I do plan on exploring to see what I can and cant do with and without a scripts. I have been working on the Monk ruby thing so scripting will hopefully not be a problem in the future. Thanks for the feedback, The idea of the Combat trainer in my game is to be the class trainer, and I was thinking have skills be earned, although it would be much more player freindly if I did like you did with JP, thanks.
The class system I was going to incorporate in somnium was a little different than the norm.
Each character has a "fixed" class title (Hero can switch between 2 starting one and if he goes the dark path.) but you're not restricted on what weapons or armour you can choose.
Each class had some unique skills that other players couldn't learn but most learn able skills required specific weapons to be use able. (Having a skill like power thrust for example usable with an axe or mace would look dumb)
Each armour type (Heavy, medium, light) had it's bonuses and negatives through incorporating status effects that boost and lower certain stats, this provides the player with the possibility to mix and match however they like.
Apart of that when you level you have points to spend on stats however you want. (Tough if you spent all points to be good in melee then switch weapon/armour because x monster is weak to magic attacks you wouldn't be as powerful as a player fully specialised as mage.)
Not sure if that is considered complex but it surely would be hard to balance it heh.
Now from what I read from your OP If you intend on keeping that route I strongly suggest you keep it cool. By limiting the choices at the start people might be annoyed if they have to restart the game from scratch because they thought x class would have been what they wanted but y class turns out to be more interesting.
I know it's going to take you more time if you keep all possible classes available ingame but that might make people spend more time to try every possible class without having to make a new game every time if there's enough content of course.
Most of what I said had nothing to do with what you need (I think) I just mentioned it because your class choices seemed like trying to have the character able to switch classes which is very welcomed in games if done well.
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I see Game classes is very important and make the game more intersting and chaillanginge and make the player seek to know what the skill he will earn if that skills is unique I see every class maust have its unique skills that cannot be learned by other classes and some shared skills. I like classes that have elemental attributes ,like classes for fir, wate , land ..... and mix them properly according to class itself like marriner can use water and ice skills......, besides physical classes like worriors , fighters ,knights..this mix of elemental and physical classes make the class system perfect for me. and I think subclasses is good if used well to serve game story So, I like much Dragon Quest VI ,VII class system
I think game classes should be prebuilt. Having alot of unique classes and building characters are these, means you don't get alot of "Nameless Hero, choose your class." Hero's Realm made a good middle ground, where you had the central characters, and the recruits.
I have read all of your replies, and I would like to bring up a new variable in class's. I come upon Dekita's stat distribution and I liked it alot, but I don't see how I would use this with class's, I think I would like to use this script but there isn't a class change option in this so that when you switched class's your stat points would revert from the stats and back to points. I'm still thinking of my class system, but stat point distribution seems much much more player friendly, it lets the player build there own class.
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Actually this can provide even more variety for your player. Imagine: You choose your stats, you can be a melee fighter or a tank. This is all well and good, BUT, your equipment, skills, and I'd assume HP and MP are based on your class.
so not only can you be several classes, use a bunch of equipment, but you get to be unique and build your stats in each of those classes.
Actually this can provide even more variety for your player. Imagine: You choose your stats, you can be a melee fighter or a tank. This is all well and good, BUT, your equipment, skills, and I'd assume HP and MP are based on your class.
so not only can you be several classes, use a bunch of equipment, but you get to be unique and build your stats in each of those classes.
Although if the stat cap is 999 for all four stats. So you could eventually dominate, and the equipment would be easier to build I think. Im quite confused in this issue, lol, I wanted alot of opinions and i have quite a lot and they are all helping inspaically the long ones that I read more than once. lol. Thanks everyone!
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Every game does it differently, some great, some not so much. Every class should offer something unique, but also have a disadvantage, as well. In a game that's story driven, the developer can control this and balance however way they wish. In a game where the player decides, they get more of the control.
I've always liked games that let you swap out job classes and then apply AP to learn new skills of those jobs. An extra bonus if there is a method to permanently learn those skills for when you swap jobs again.
I'm also fond of no classes, and just letting players customize their characters throughout the whole game (stats, spells, equipment, and all) based on AP, gold, EXP, etc. purchased or earned.
I also like class upgrades that allow you to morph into new classes, or even gain a secondary class.
Creating side stories based upon a class selected may be a tough chore to do, especially when cut scenes are involved, because you want to ensure the right variables or switches are used at the right time. If it can be pulled off, great! If not, then try something you know you can handle.
An example could be, the hero's class is chosen at the beginning of the game, but then you play all the side characters for the first part (aka Dragon Quest IV). Then, when the hero's chapter comes up, the story may begin differently, in a variety of possible towns with a variety of possible stories, depending on the class chosen. While the main story elements would stay the same, there would be minor differences that fit into his/her background for whatever class was chosen. This would create a need for replayability, so people can see all the different possible stories.
I decided to go with the stat distribution, and class's both but build the system when I get further along. I only have one problem, I have a few monsters, so I have something to do while i'm testing the main story, well, I can already tell that if I use this system that i'm going with now, it will be super hard to balance the game out. I have a few monsters and there low level ( I'm using Yanfly's monster level script to attempt to try and save the balance of the game.) but with this stat distribution it makes the players stats go crazy, I had 50 str at level 3, but it seems that the monsters cant keep up with me. and after I surpass there level they hit 0's. If any one can give me any pointers as to how I can balance things, I would greatly appreciate it.
Was expecting something like this so here's how I tried to fix it on somnium.
Write on a paper the initial stats of every hero then write how much you expect them to have at lvl cap.
Once your done with that test the points system by making your character reach lvl max instantly and see if it's possible to max everything out in it's current configuration.
If you can max everything, there you have your problem.
I had that very same problem on somnium and I solved it by having enough points to max only 2-3 stats while leaving the others around 500ish (Counting hp/mp too)
NO character can be good in everything, they must focus on a role and if they have screwed out their stats try making an npc that let's you reset your points by making your current level stored in a variable make x party member back to lvl 1 then make it's lvl go to the variable's stored number.
This post has been edited by Vexus: Nov 15 2012, 02:16 AM
That's what the stat caps are by default. the monsters are whats not in tact, The monsters are whats not IN balance. like my level one monster, as soon as I hit lvl two (You get 5 points to put into str, dex, vitality, or magic.) I put all my points like this 2 in str, 2 in dex and one in vit. after I turn lvl 2 the lvl one monster hits 0...
That's what the stat caps are by default. the monsters are whats not in tact, The monsters are whats not IN balance. like my level one monster, as soon as I hit lvl two (You get 5 points to put into str, dex, vitality, or magic.) I put all my points like this 2 in str, 2 in dex and one in vit. after I turn lvl 2 the lvl one monster hits 0...
Something I'm planning for my own RPG is that statistic boosts play in decimals as opposed to solid numbers (truncated to integer during battle). This will also take effect in outside-of-battle events, so the characters experience casual growth by events and not just level-grinding.
So you could always change it so it takes X "points" to raise a stat by 1 (raise the stat by 1/X for every point spent), as opposed to raising by solid numbers. (of course most players will probably play the points in such a way that they guarantee at least one stat going up, but the only way to combat that is give the player less points than required to +1 something, which you don't have to do) Then you can award the player points for side-quests as opposed to fluff items or straight experience, without overpowering the characters.
So say it takes four "points" to raise the stat by 1; you can just raise the stat by .25 for each point, and have something truncate the decimal and use it for some glowy lights on the menu. (Or just show the straight decimal)
Additionally/alternatively, you can have something in the back-end that will raise enemy stats by some amount based on the player's level. This could help keep the enemies damaging players early on, while also raising the stats to meet the player when the numbers would normally reach 999. In this case you don't HAVE TO use decimals on the enemy stats, but the multiplier would have to be tweaked in such a way that you don't wind up with an Oblivion clone (albeit in 2D).
This post has been edited by ZarroTsu: Nov 15 2012, 07:40 PM
Well, atm i'm using Yanfly's monster levels, and Dekita's stat distribution. I'm also using SAS IV, and ABS. ummm, actually if there is someone that would like to see what I'm experiencing I Can build the game and upload it. I have a few planned ideas thanks to the feedback on how I fix this problem. I think i will continue to build the game and then come back to this when I have more things to work with, having a few zombies and one bee in a pasture isnt effective on balancing an game, lol. Thanks for the feed back everyone.
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Nov 10 2012, 08:16 PM
