The First Layer, In-depth Options

[Sparrowsmith]

I reckon we should almost ignore the MMO idea, because it breaks the characterization, and we should just create suspension of disbelief by saying that these four people are engaging together in a 4-player party, turn-based system and whatnot. Everything is like a regular single-player RPG, except somehow they're all playing together. There's gotta be some congruity of style and battle systems throughout the layers, so this layer should introduce our Level 2 feel of battle within that. So what I'm basically saying, is let's kind of push aside this "MMO" thing and get to work on what actually happens within the dungeon

I'm happy with this, but there should still be the cooperative battle system of MMOs (tanks, buffers, etc) even if it's turn taking.

[Kaust]

Well as that seemingly killed the thread I vote nay!
Thing is, we can't just avoid things we can't settle on, at points we're just gna have to keep going round and round an idea 'til we reach a compromise or we clash it out. When I started this thread trying to make it 'mmoey' was the entire aim; as far as I'm concerned what goes on inside the castle (bar enemies, traps/puzzles, layouts, et ceteras) is story, which we have another thread for.
I guess what I mean is this thread should be for what Titan would call the 'hard' details that people can start working with. Deciding on how the first layer works as a game is pretty much key to designing everything else inside it.

(That said, the 'old school rpg' thing could work well considering this is a RRR game)

[MEands]

These seem to be the major disagreements, this is my vote.

Game type: Still make it an MMO
Game style: Don't focus on the MMO aspect, just interface, no actual multiplayer
Battle: Sideview battle system?
Game begins at: Game starts in a town or at the main dungeon (I'm kinda indifferent on this one)
Duration of Layer: Layer 1 only lasts enough time for the player to gain about 5 levels
Character Customization: Minimal and only at the beginning of the game

Are there any other things we need to agree on?

[bulmabriefs144]

Game type: Still make it an MMO
Game style: Don't focus on the MMO aspect, just interface, no actual multiplayer
Battle: Sideview battle system?
Game begins at: Game starts in a town or at the main dungeon (I'm kinda indifferent on this one)
Duration of Layer: Layer 1 only lasts enough time for the player to gain about 5 levels
Character Customization: Minimal and only at the beginning of the game

Mostly agree.

Game type: Still make it an MMO
Game style: Don't focus on the MMO aspect, just interface, no actual multiplayer. Party strategies are still a nice idea.
Battle: Sideview battle system, with possibly surrounded and pincer options in battle.
Game begins at: Game starts in town, wtih party talking about heading out to main dungeon. The boss in question may or may not be a big final boss, it might just be the goal of their current quest. (In that case, we can have the party be like level 30-35 at average, rather than 80+ for a smaller scale adventure)
Duration of Layer: Layer 1 only lasts enough time for the player to gain about 5 levels
Character Customization: Level 30 class up custom chars (I like class changing). Characters maybe start at level 25, and probably don't need to gain more than 5 levels (although they can if they go off the rails, either with sidequests or remote area training) to get past the major boss. Too much leveling and the players get really attached to the custom characters. Though there might be points where the characters can access them somehow, with the help of the programmers. Too minimal customization (like, just stats for instance), and it doesn't give a strong enough sense of attachment. Somewhere in between, a happy medium.

If this is agreed let's focus more on world-building. What sort of shops, houses, and people does this town have? What optional training areas are nearby (maybe some deserts or swamps)? What type of monsters are common to the area, and what puzzles are notable? Also, so puzzles, might be char-building puzzles (that is, they don't get solved by the player, so much as show the characters working together to give more of a sense of connection with the party).

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 27 2012, 05:33 PM

[thatbennyguy]

Just a question: how long are we going to be spending in Layer 1? I had the notion that it was just a small intro, that we will be spending most of our time in Layer 2, where our main protagonists are. So like, a few short puzzles and minigames with our strong Layer 1 heroes, then everything goes black. We don't want to get *too* into the game and then it just cuts out on us.

I think it should just be a dungeon that we're in, some kind of cave with monsters and traps and ladders. There might be a traveling salesman in there selling potions and whatnot, people you have to save, but other than that it's just you, the puzzles, and a few monsters. But if it's a full-blown world that you can explore right off the bat at Layer 1... how will the player feel when all their stats are reset and they get their layer 2 n00b counterparts? I have a feeling that this should be very brief as to let players get into the "meat" of the game rather quickly (which is Layer 2, no doubt).

[Kaust]

Just a question: how long are we going to be spending in Layer 1? I had the notion that it was just a small intro, that we will be spending most of our time in Layer 2, where our main protagonists are. So like, a few short puzzles and minigames with our strong Layer 1 heroes, then everything goes black. We don't want to get *too* into the game and then it just cuts out on us.

I think it should just be a dungeon that we're in, some kind of cave with monsters and traps and ladders. There might be a traveling salesman in there selling potions and whatnot, people you have to save, but other than that it's just you, the puzzles, and a few monsters. But if it's a full-blown world that you can explore right off the bat at Layer 1... how will the player feel when all their stats are reset and they get their layer 2 n00b counterparts? I have a feeling that this should be very brief as to let players get into the "meat" of the game rather quickly (which is Layer 2, no doubt).

This is how I feel, it seems to be the best pace for the story, and well, I love our story, I want the focus to be on it.
Others may be excited by the prospect of making an mmo style game though and want to spend a little more time on it. I'm fine with that, this game isn't just for the players. And if we are going to be spending too much time on/in it, at least its going to be awesome ^^

[MEands]

I think we need to find a balance where the game isn't too long, but also isn't short enough where the surprise of it being a game doesn't hit people hard.
I think an open world would be too confusing and too distracting.
I say you really aren't able to decide where to go, we give the appearance of an open world, but the player only has the option of venturing to where the layer 2 players choose to go. So basically the town and then the dungeon.
Now I'm wondering if 5 layers is still too much. That's actually going to take a long time if they're already level 30-60

[Sparrowsmith]

I imagine you mean levels.
We can balance it so 5 levels is as long as we want it to be. They won't question it too much... until it's too late

I think battles should be 4v1, like in some online games, where they fight a series of very powerful enemies. Thoughts?

[MEands]

I'm indifferent on the amount of enemies. The only thing with a single enemy is that it gets very boring and there is almost no strategy.

[Sparrowsmith]

I'm indifferent on the amount of enemies. The only thing with a single enemy is that it gets very boring and there is almost no strategy.

To the contrary, there is more strategy. Every enemy is a specific foe that must have a calculated defeat, rather than a spam of 'attacks'.

[Kaust]

Well actually what MEands said is more fitting an MMO (stock enemies with simple battles), and probably another reason to hurry through this layer as the battle aspect of gameplay would likely have to be lacking.

[thatbennyguy]

Well actually what MEands said is more fitting an MMO (stock enemies with simple battles), and probably another reason to hurry through this layer as the battle aspect of gameplay would likely have to be lacking.

I reckon it'll be the classic trope of starting off with the most powerful, highest levelled heroes, with all the skills, the most powerful weapons and equipment etc., and then waking up to reality and realising you have a level 1 character with a wooden stick as a weapon. Layer 1 will be to give you a taste of gameplay, and then we get into the meat of the story and gameplay, the progression and whatnot.

[Sparrowsmith]

Well actually what MEands said is more fitting an MMO (stock enemies with simple battles), and probably another reason to hurry through this layer as the battle aspect of gameplay would likely have to be lacking.

I'm not so sure. I played FFXI for a while, and the enemies I battled I did so with a team, and even then it was DANGEROUS leveling up. We could go up three in a few hours if we played perfect, but one false move and the whole party would die and lose levels. Battles were intense to say the least.

[bulmabriefs144]

You can lose levels?!? Geez and I thought Maple was bad.

I don't like the idea of rushing through Layer 1. It feels half-assed. Just as I don't like the idea of chucking Layer 1 completely out due to a virus. It should really be a full-immersion world that has at least a moderate amount of effort. Later when parts of the code are fixed, you should be able to use some sort of console to re-enter the game.

And character customization is a must. Characters that are competely overleveled starting out are kinda boring. You want the players to feel a sense of loss when they find out these custom characters they spent lots of effort on are fake. You want the players to then transfer that same connection to their real life counterparts, and want to actively help the programmers save them from a similar fate.

I disagree that there would be boring enemies and no strategy too. This is only a boring layer if you make it so. We can have distinct strategies, but have it as a tutorial, using party speak (the hero explains how to use buffs effectively, while ordering around the priest; a boss battle results in a strange group of commands being used to exploit a weakness).

Also, guys, seriously, rent a free MMO from a browser site. This has the opportunity to be alot of fun from the start, but if you don't do the research, it hasn't the real feel of group gaming and ends up being kinda flat.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Jun 5 2012, 08:25 AM

[Kaust]

I think its because many of us view it as an introductory layer; an introduction to the characters (in a way), introduction to the story, et ceteras. You don't want what feels like 'an immersive tutorial' to go on longer than an hour tops.
Like I've said before Bulma, if you want to make the mmo as 'realistic' (not the best choice of word) as possible thats fine, but there are more elements to a game than gameplay, as I'm sure you're aware. Depending on our purpose (which, as of now, still seems to be story-centric), a generic, stock mmo may be the way to go, it would also be easier for everyone to contribute 'stock' enemies and maps.
Because I've not played FFXI or Maplestory, don't assume I've not played many mmo's. Its because I've played so many I'm able to recognise what are the conventions and what are unique elements of individual mmos. The fact is most battles do not require little to any strategy, most enemies are fodder for characters building, most ppl also party together, further simplifying battles that are usually only challenging solo. I also imagine everyones played an mmo; everyone here is a gaming fan, they would have at least tried one out. (If you haven't I s'pose you should at least give WoW a go as its free for a bit and it is regarded as themmo, though it was pretty disappointing imo)

Now we don't have to have an exact replica of an mmo, we can make the battles harder, we could even give the mmo world its own rigid story that the players feel obligated to follow... but you seem to want the best of everything, as if you were trying to recreate the ultimate mmo out of fragments of other games. That will not work. If alone for engine restrictions. Either its uniquely our own mmo, in which case its a mere pastiche of online gaming, or it will have to strictly emulate a select few.

[ShanattoGunner]

I'm back from vacation

Warned, no spamming. ~ Kayden997

[Sparrowsmith]

Just some key points:

It should be longer than an hour, but less than four.
The battle system should be easy to learn, but require some introduction and tactical knowhow.
We shouldn't lose ALL data from this layer. We can use some kind of method to bring levels from this layer to layer 2. There are several ways to do this.
Perhaps some customization, but at a minimum.

[Kaust]

It could be said they gained some xp through playing the game itself, weapon-wise at least (I dont think that would be as feasible with spells).
Perhaps the programmers could step in and give them the powers at some point, with a few lines showing they recognise the antagonists capacity to transcend layers making it a threat to themselves.
If we could get a good customization system going it would be cool, but its not as important in other layers.

[Sparrowsmith]

What if the players start with multiple weapons each. Each weapon modifies stats in some way. This gives easy customization.
So the tank character can be SUPER offensive, or he can be defensive and take heaps of damage.

[Kaust]

Well I decided I'd make a quick mock-up of the castle entrance and here are a few practical things I encountered:
-maps need to be large, possibly with only a couple of maps in the whole layer (town and journey to castle would be one map, a seperate upon entering the castle), this would provide the illusion of a larger seamless world.
-there will either have to be no chests or chests that respawn every few minutes, otherwise it wouldnt make sense about the supposed other online players getting them (possibly we could also encounter a few previously opened ones)

Without further ado, here's the mock-up (http://www.mediafire.com/?nm73q0996th8wyu), it was only a half-hour job just intended to get others thinking and see what works and what doesn't, so no its not great or anything.


You'll notice lots of enemies grouped together defined by an area, thats what I mean by stock enemies, not that they are inherently generic (though, of course, these are 'cause their rtp)