Time Wasting Mechanics, Things we don't need in games Options

[Arbor]

I want to know what things in games, any kind of games, you guys find annoying, pointless, and a waste of time. One thing I absolutely hate in RTS games is upgrades. In most RTS everyone wastes their time and resources beefing up their guys, and in the end everyone has the same advantage as they did in the beginning.

In RPG's, the most annoying thing is farming. Such as "to get the ultimate weapon get EVERY SINGLE ITEMS with a .05% chance to drop." Its not about skill at all. Its about how much time you're willing to kill to get something that you don't really need. If I can beat the final boss with a moderately decent weapon, I'm going to. If I spend 10 hours farming for items or for single item, and it makes the last battle go 5 minutes faster, its not worth it. I think it would be better to require the ultimate weapon if your going to have one and have a ridiculously difficult, mind ripping quest to go get it. At least at the end of that I feel like I accomplished something.

Another thing I really hate is the ridiculous tutorials in the beginning of so many games. Their like HUURRRRR DO THIS when I'm already able to do that in seventeen different forms that I figured out on my own.

Anyways, what other things do you hate about games that just wast time?

[ranmaster]

I hate unaccounted random battles.

Especially when you don't know what you'll run into. I was never a fan of it.

This post has been edited by ranmaster: Nov 10 2011, 12:15 PM

[bulmabriefs144]

Teal Slime type enemies. When all the normal enemies give crummy exp, and the one that does help is one per hour.

[Tsukihime]

Nothing wrong with tutorials. It is more user-friendly. Not everyone can figure out seventeen ways to perform an action. What if I create a game with such unintuitive controls yet suitable for the specific game?

Only when they don't provide an option to skip the tutorial, like maybe when you want to play the game again?

The idea of having to watch cutscenes is pretty boring. I typically don't care about story, so if you're going to make me sit through minutes of cutscenes, forget it.

I also don't like grinding. Having to grind for levels is boring.
Some games don't balance it so that you are "strong enough" to be able to get past the next dungeon without having to sit around grinding for a couple hours before you can proceed to the next level.

Of course it might be intentional, but most of the time I would assume it really isn't.

This post has been edited by Tsukihime: Nov 10 2011, 02:34 PM

[Milton Monday]

Tutorials are fine if they're actually explaining a gameplay element that is actually unique. However, a lot of games these days assume that they're the first RPG, or even the first video game, you've ever played! (I died a little inside when FF12 felt I needed a tutorial on walking.) You don't need to explain RPG basics; anybody who downloads an RPG Maker game has probably played a JRPG before and knows more or less what they're getting into.

The idea of having to watch cutscenes is pretty boring. I typically don't care about story, so if you're going to make me sit through minutes of cutscenes, forget it.

While I agree whole heartedly that gameplay is the most important thing in any game, and should take center stage, plotline is a pretty big element for RPGs, especially JRPGs. As long as the pacing is good, the dialogue is natural and flows well, and the main cast is decently likable, plentiful cutscenes are fine by me. It's only a problem if things go all Xenogears and the player is made to read walls of text for almost an hour at a time between short bursts of gameplay.

[Cozzer]

"Here's a dungeon; if you casually walk through it collecting treasures, you'll be around 10 by the end of it. Now, here's a boss battle which you have to be at least level 20 to have any chance of winning. Have fun!"

"You finished the dungeon? Good, now you have to do it backwards to exit. Have fun!"

Also, putting hard boss battles just after cutscenes, so you have to watch them again and again any time you fail. (Is it so hard to throw a "Open Menu" and/or a "Call Save Menu" just before the battle?)

Important random drops. It's ok if you tell me "fight 100 enemies to do get item X", but I hate when item X has a 1/100 chance of being dropped. Bonus points if X is required to go on with the story.

Being thrown in a big explorable world without any kind of directions. Bonus points if the world map has random fights. More bonus points if going in the wrong direction results in overlevelled random fights.

I don't hate tutorials so much; sure, sometimes they waste time, but at least they waste time ONCE and they're done...

[TheBen]

Like Cozzer said, backtracking is one of the greatest wastes of time in video games, and for most RPG Maker games (no budget, plenty of time), it's basically inexcusable to have to grind through a place more than once. If the story facilitates that you have to go through a place, say, backwards, at least include a shortcut or alternative route that couldn't be accessed the first time around to make things interesting.

Some tutorials can be aggravating, but they really don't waste time unless you take too long to cover something simple or intuitive. A tutorial on walking is too small - we can conglomerate that and a few other basic things into "Basic Actions" or "Field Actions", and that tutorial should only take up one or two text boxes at best.

[munkis]

Being thrown in a big explorable world without any kind of directions.

*cough* Fallout 3 *cough* Although that wouldn't be so bad if the world wasn't so un-populated; I get the near non-presence of humans, but I would've liked more mutated creatures and feral ghouls etc. Rage has that part down thanks to id Software.

I don't mind grinding so much, but when I have to kill a zillion uber-weak (relatively speaking) enemies for the simple fact that they're in my way and I get next to zero XP, it gets annoying fast

Really short maps between important areas kind of annoy me too. Not only does it waste time dealing with lack-luster map design, it wastes disk space.

As far as having bosses right after cutscenes, it's not necessarily up to the game designers to protect n00bs from themselves. A lot of times they'll advise you to save early and often; if you don't read the directions, too bad so sad.

Plot-required quest items should be given as rewards, not as ridiculously rare monster drops.

[Daio]

Empty treasure chests. I could understand if there's a particular story reason, such as if you're on the tail of some band of thieves and they've already cleaned out the dungeon, but why put a bunch of treasure chests on the map only to not put anything in them?

[Cozzer]

it's not necessarily up to the game designers to protect n00bs from themselves.

Uh... actually, it is.
You know, the players can't read your mind and see just where the difficult boss battle is. If you don't tell them somehow, they have 2 choices:
- Save every 2 steps, making the game less fun.
- Having to sit through cutscenes and dungeons that aren't fun anymore, making the game less fun.
Putting some kind of marker to tell the player "Hey, I really think you should save here" won't make you less of a man, I assure.

Anyway, what my complaint was about were the boss battles placed directly after the cutscene, preventing the player from saving even if he wants to.

But since we're talking about saving issues, I'll add: games who think letting you save is some kind of sin.
1) I have a life, you know, and it doesn't feel inclined to wait for a stupid game to let me save. This is very important in haldhend games. I'm looking at you, FF3DS.
2) Replaying challenges A, B and C (which I can overcome easily) just because I cannot overcome challenge D is not difficult, it's just boring.

Empty treasure chests.

Also, this. Thankfully I almost never encountered it.

Plot-required quest items should be given as rewards, not as ridiculously rare monster drops.

Is there really a game that does this? It's... terrible.

This post has been edited by Cozzer: Nov 11 2011, 11:12 AM

[Yuu-Mon Musuedo]

Repeatedly doing a action in battle to better yourself, such as the drawing system in Final Fantasy 8. I like the game but the draw system is annoying.

EXP bonus teaser, such as Star Ocean: Till the end of time. Work hard to get the EXP bonus, once you get it, you would most likely spend your time in battle being too careful, only to have one enemy hit you once to lose it. I don't want to spend my time being too careful, so I ignore the bonus.

The worst crime of all to me is from Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core's slot limit break thing. It gets in my way and helps me win fights for me without my permission. You will be fighting, then suddenly the limit break slot machine pops up, stopping the battle. Most of the time, you will get lucky and it will show a cutscene of you doing a powerful move that deals massive damage to the enemies, most likely helping you win the fight for you.

I want to play the game without that help, but I can't turn it off. And it's such a downer when I'm fighting a powerful enemy, I would say I don't need your help, I can handle. But when it interrupts the flow of battle, it wastes my time seeing it do pretty colors and flashy cutscenes.

This post has been edited by Yuu-Mon Musuedo: Nov 11 2011, 11:47 AM

[munkis]

Plot-required quest items should be given as rewards, not as ridiculously rare monster drops.

Is there really a game that does this? It's... terrible.

Not that the quests should be easy (or insanely difficult), but they should be at least somewhat challenging. Or, you could have them be boss drops. It's just that when they drop from random monsters, it seems like they have a 1/10000th chance of dropping, at least to me. That's not difficult, it's boring to the point of frustrating.

This post has been edited by munkis: Nov 11 2011, 05:59 PM

[Tsukihime]

2) Replaying challenges A, B and C (which I can overcome easily) just because I cannot overcome challenge D is not difficult, it's just boring.

Naturally it is easier to beat each challenge, go and re-supply and be in your top shape for the next battle.
To be able to overcome all challenges consecutively separates those that can't beat it from those that can.

[Cozzer]

To be able to overcome all challenges consecutively separates those that can't beat it from those that can.

Yes, overcoming a series of challenges consecutively is a challenge in itself, but I still feel it's a cheap and unfun kind of challenge... (I'm talking about RPGs, where replaying is very boring; I would judge an action game with different parameters)

This post has been edited by Cozzer: Nov 12 2011, 12:47 AM

[Naridar]

Plot-required quest items should be given as rewards, not as ridiculously rare monster drops.

Is there really a game that does this? It's... terrible.

As far as I know, the only game that did this is Tales of Phantasia (on the GBA at least), where you had to fight a strong random encounter enemy to get not 1, but 6 of a specific item that lets you pass a point in the final dungeon. No other game I played had this kind of cheapness.

This post has been edited by Naridar: Nov 12 2011, 02:29 AM

[munkis]

Plot-required quest items should be given as rewards, not as ridiculously rare monster drops.

Is there really a game that does this? It's... terrible.

As far as I know, the only game that did this is Tales of Phantasia (on the GBA at least), where you had to fight a strong random encounter enemy to get not 1, but 6 of a specific item that lets you pass a point in the final dungeon. No other game I played had this kind of cheapness.

I never played that game, but...

Not that the quests should be easy (or insanely difficult), but they should be at least somewhat challenging. Or, you could have them be boss drops. It's just that when they drop from random monsters, it seems like they have a 1/10000th chance of dropping, at least to me. That's not difficult, it's boring to the point of frustrating.

Although, having it drop from a really tough random encounter monster (especially when you encounter them very rarely) would suck, I'll give you that. For that matter, even getting more powerful weapons from monsters wouldn't be quite so bad if getting it were challenging but not requiring you to grind for what seems like hours first. In FFVII, there was one for Arieth that you had to steal, and you'd only get it after MANY attempts. And the particular monster would only appear in a certain place, and too infrequently.

EDIT: When I meant rewards, I meant when you turn the quest in to NPC John Doe, not a random monster drop.

This post has been edited by munkis: Nov 12 2011, 04:33 AM

[Oceans Dream]

Plot-required quest items should be given as rewards, not as ridiculously rare monster drops.

Sword of Mana loved to do this for quests (not necessarily plot required though). Lots of quests required random enemy drops, and some materials were so bad in their drops that you had to visit a certain enemy in one certain space in the world map in a certain day and had like a very small drop chance and a chance for it to drop the wrong thing instead. It is the worst gameplay decision ever and that definitely is just a sign of game padding.

A lot of things where luck or randomness is involved is cheap and time wasting. I don't think randomness should be completely eliminated but I'd put far less emphasis than people tend to do.

2) Replaying challenges A, B and C (which I can overcome easily) just because I cannot overcome challenge D is not difficult, it's just boring.

Naturally it is easier to beat each challenge, go and re-supply and be in your top shape for the next battle.
To be able to overcome all challenges consecutively separates those that can't beat it from those that can.

It depends entirely what the challenge is. Too many challenges at once is really just going to wear on you and tire you out, and can be a sign of bad pacing. Perhaps the initial challenges can be real easy but the last challenge is tricky or they never told you what you have to do so you keep failing because you don't understand what you have to do. So you end up having to redo the stages/challenges that you already handled just fine and are already bored of just because you can't beat that last one. You might even screw up because you get reckless just trying to get through those stages so you can try the last one again. I'm thinking of it primarily as if it's minigames or something, where the player can't just save up HP or heal, but rather has to perform some tasks that the game engine might not necessarily be good at!

Basically, difficulty jumps can be okay but you have to be careful with it. Especially bad if the challenge requires that you have x equipment or spell that was actually optional.


Another time waster is simply moving too slow in maps that are too big and uneventful. You easily get bored this way, especially if you have to cross through multiple times for whatever reason.

Tutorials are fine if they're actually explaining a gameplay element that is actually unique. However, a lot of games these days assume that they're the first RPG, or even the first video game, you've ever played!

It's funny how games used to use gameplay design rather than hand holding tutorials to teach you how to play the game. You can see this in early NES/SNES games. Play as some overpowered character at first so you can learn the game and play around with the options without worrying about losing yet. Place obstacles that you need to figure out how to get over so you can use those ideas to master the game later. Games used to do this just fine without needing "PRESS THE ARROW KEY TO MOVE YOUR CHARACTER AROUND!". You learn things better by doing rather than by being told it. Require a situation where you need to use x, blend it seemlessly in your game, and people will figure it out, rather than seeing a wordy tutorial in the beginning, skipping it, then realizing later you don't actually know what to do in that situation.

http://www.significant-bits.com/super-mari...-design-lessons

This post has been edited by Oceans Dream: Nov 12 2011, 05:51 AM

[Cozzer]

Especially bad if the challenge requires that you have x equipment or spell that was actually optional.

This reminds me of another horrible desing strategy: the "You have total freedom in choosing how to build your character, but only build A or B are going to work!" Bonus points if you have no way to guess it before the point where you lose; EXTRA bonus points if you don't have any fast way to change your build.

It's funny how games used to use gameplay design rather than hand holding tutorials to teach you how to play the game.

Well, sometimes wordy tutorials are inevitable, expecially in RPGs... still, it's true that one should to everything he can to integrate them in the gameplay.

[Oceans Dream]

Well, sometimes wordy tutorials are inevitable, expecially in RPGs... still, it's true that one should to everything he can to integrate them in the gameplay.

Yeah, I do understand that. Not saying there should not be any tutorials, despite how it might have sounded. Just that some things don't really require tutorials, some things should be entirely optional and there just for the people new to the genre, having gameplay teach the players as much as possible, and showing/having them do stuff rather than sitting around reading walls of text. But tutorial design is another topic altogether and frankly I don't like to make super basic tutorials while other people have the opinion that you should treat the player like they really don't know anything.

[Daio]

The talk of random drops to progress the plot reminds me somewhat of Digital Devil Saga 2.

In the final dungeon there are several optional fights that you can do against various mythological beasts. However, to unlock their doors, you need a specific item, from a rare encounter, that's also a rare drop. And when you combine that with the fact that in DDS2 you can die at ANY TIME from a wave of bad luck, it sucks to finally get the drop and get game over while running back to the save point.

The battles are optional, sure, but the fact they're so inaccessible is off-putting.