The First Layer, In-depth Options

[bulmabriefs144]

Let's try this. Hero meets villain big bad either at or outside (see above) their home village. I may in fact be tranquil or peaceful, but perhaps the villain brings war and/or destruction to such a village (let's go with that picture above as the village). If we really want it to be unclear that it's an MMO, perhaps the characters have different starting towns (they chose them when first logging in), and as part of the world event, he messed each of them up too. One might be a plains (hero/warrior) town, one a forest (wizards/priests) town, one a mountain (archers) town, one a swamp (rogues) town. Sorta like Maplestory with its class towns. Anyway, the hero meets the others rather than having an initial large party.

The first dungeon shouldn't really be at all difficult. The hero should has some basic self-healing First Aid technique (could make this a TP rather than MP skill) in addition to fighting skills. There should be mainly weak enemies (with maybe one tougher enemy type that gives a lot of EXP), and some basic rock moving or pressure plate puzzles. Maybe some sort of tutorial style boss. The second boss/dungeon can require more strategy, since you probably have a priest and a wizard.

Also, let's divide damage by Melee and Ranged, along with whatever magical elements we choose. Spiders and such are melee with ranged immunity (hard to hit), bats and other flying enemies are ranged with melee immunity (hard to hit from the ground), and everything else can be hit with varying degrees by either. This is sorta like Final Fantasy X, and is why you have archers.

They sorta head out to some deep underground dungeon with possibly some old underground castle ruins after a party is assembled. This jives both with an actual adventure, and the contents of an MMO.

[MEands]

From what I'm hearing, it sounds like a first dungeon isn't necesarry.
I think what we're doing is starting the game off at the final dungeon, possibly a little before.
It's fun in a game if they throw you into a scenario without explaining much, but at the same time, this might give it away that you're not going to stay in this world for a long time.
I imagine that since this is the final dungeon it should be very dark, perhaps prison cells?
We still need to decide what it is the protagonists are fighting.

[bulmabriefs144]

Well, if we do start at the final dungeon, we should at least try to establish context (who is this villain, who are the characters, with a few quick background scenes). This why we could also include some of these town pictures, even if only as a brief scene of them.

[shinyjiggly]

Just remember that this is supposed to resemble an MMO and last time I checked, most of them don't have "final" bosses, just really strong bosses.
Perhaps they're on a typical quest to obtain some sort of McGuffin for a random NPC to obtain a special event item. Remember that the players know that they don't have that much time until the update boots them off the server for "maintenance", thus giving them a reason to go after the special event item quest at that particular level instead of a higher one.

So they're likely starting from a hub-town or whatever en-route to the area where the event's dungeon lies.

[MEands]

You know what would be fun. What if we throw the player into the town right before the dungeon, "Okay guys, we don't have much time, get all the items you need and then we'll go to the dungeon"
The player starts off with a large sum of money with which to buy new items to help them in the next dungeon. Now this being an MMO, there are at least 30 of each type of item for sale, thus giving the player freedom to 'customize' almost every aspect of battle.
Maybe there will even be some out of battle items for sale, such as speed enhancers, or monster evasions.

[Kaust]

Maybe there will even be some out of battle items for sale, such as speed enhancers, or monster evasions.

That sort of thing is excellent (though in mmos you can typically see the enemy on the map and choose whether to engage them).

I'd say it'd be most effective to simply start just outside or possibly even already inside the castle and then the serverwide announcement is made (as opposed to knowing prior), making it a more 'actiony' introduction than sitting round waiting for people to finish a conversation and then having to fight and travel to get there only to be logged out. This would also explain the characters' sense of urgency (as being forcibly logged off usually results in death and death often comes with a penalty) to try and finish the dungeon. Possibly this is an area to be deleted during the maintenance, thus why they want to achieve whatever reward, or maybe just try to escape, before maintenance begins.
Also I don't think there should be standing around and talking at all. As a fairly experienced mmo player I can tell you something like that is a rarity since its usually pretty easy to type and fight common enemies at the same time.

I would like to find a way to make the characters customizable, 'building' characters is a huge part of many mmos, I'm just not sure it'll work though, since it'd be time-consuming at the start and then we're destroying the layer so soon anyways.

[kaz]

Something I did a while back - maybe could be tidied up-

[MEands]

Kaust: That's true what you're saying, I guess this part would only work if we want the 1st layer to be a lot longer. And yeah, maybe the game starts in a battle, and the synopsis is explained during the battle, like, each turn they explain a little more. We could make the enemy they're fighting invincible until the conversation ends.

kaz: That's almost exactly the feel I was thinking this dungeon should have. Awesome job.

[Kaust]

Good thinking MEands; How about then if we are only able to control the main character (could still heal and change equipment of other party members) and use an abs script? We could orchestrate some really awesome battles through the castle and would look pretty mmo-like.

[MEands]

Oh yeah. The only thing is from what I've seen, abs seems kinda glitchy and really spammy.
Maybe I've only seen bad examples though. We have a lot of people on this project so we could probably pull it off.

[thatbennyguy]

Yeah from my experience, even the best ABS games for RPG Maker don't work well. I reckon we invent our own system, which is a mixture of action-based and turn-based systems. Similar to Final Fantasy's gauge system, except, well, more custom to our needs. It needs to fit the overall feel of our game, and I don't think ABS brings that dimension.

[bulmabriefs144]

Just remember that this is supposed to resemble an MMO and last time I checked, most of them don't have "final" bosses, just really strong bosses.
Perhaps they're on a typical quest to obtain some sort of McGuffin for a random NPC to obtain a special event item. Remember that the players know that they don't have that much time until the update boots them off the server for "maintenance", thus giving them a reason to go after the special event item quest at that particular level instead of a higher one.

So they're likely starting from a hub-town or whatever en-route to the area where the event's dungeon lies.

What MMOs have you played? Maplestory has the Black Magician (in theory, though the patch never really comes around), WoW had some promo about facing some such boss (dun play WoW, so I dunno), basically they're level 90+ bosses, which is the same difference. The plot would be less detailed than normal given the nature of the game, but otherwise you could call it a final boss. The difference from an MMO and a typical RPG being you at most get some sort of award (or a message saying "MargeXIII beat The Rive Ooze, congratulations!") and keep playing. And can often re-challenge the final boss.

Fetch quests would very much be online games, as would the idea of hub-towns.

Yeah from my experience, even the best ABS games for RPG Maker don't work well. I reckon we invent our own system, which is a mixture of action-based and turn-based systems. Similar to Final Fantasy's gauge system, except, well, more custom to our needs. It needs to fit the overall feel of our game, and I don't think ABS brings that dimension.

If we could figure out a targetting system (something like where it pauses hero and monster movement, and has some sort of cursor choice), we could have something more like a Final Fantasy XI/XII type thing. Sorta where if you attack, you stop action to target, then run in toward the enemy.

Also, I think I've seen some other system in one game (I think it was Legend of Philosopher's Stone) that basically retooled the side-scroller system outside of battle. If we could do something like this, we could probably make whichever things we wanted in a battle (since it technically isn't inside the battle screen). Like weather events or pictures popping up.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 21 2012, 04:14 PM

[shinyjiggly]

Okay, you've caught me. I've never played a single MMORPG ever. I actually have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to their usual mechanics. In fact, I have come to despise that post that I made because now that I think about it, I don't want to have everything go corny with hub town A and McGuffin item. I don't want layer 1 to seem like a mundane place of the norm because chances are that the player is going to stop right there and leave because they haven't been hooked by the plot yet.
Perhaps I'm just beating myself up over this small insignificant post that I made, but you've been the only one to call me out on it and find that something was up with it. And for that, I thank you.

But that brings us to another thing: should we try to make layer 1's mmorpg mechanics appeal more to singleplayer RPG players or should we try to cater it more towards the genre's usual crowd? And what effects will this have on the way that we (the players of this game) perceive layer 1 in relation to layer 2?

[Sparrowsmith]

Well we have to keep some symbolic representation. This is a single player game, about a group of people, playing a multiplayer game, individually.
We don't have to represent it perfectly. We can have a standard battle system if we want.
The real place we have to try is in the attack, in the balancing. It can be turn taking so long as we have a 'tank', a 'buffer', a 'debuffer'. It's possible I got some terms wrong, but hey.

I think ABS is probably a bad idea, because then we'd have one player playing as four (or more) to do the above.

There is nothing to stop is thinking really out of the box though.

[bulmabriefs144]

I think we should have the game halfway like an RPG and halfway like an MMO. Jiggly, I recommend this game. It has no download, and gives the general flavor of an MMO.

RPG: In order, then, to have a fast game plus, we need a way to speed up levelling. So yea, maybe they do start at the 1st level rather than the final dungeon (I like the idea of a flashback, as we can have it both ways, plus some quick storytelling), but because of various events/sidequests, they level extremely fast (level 1-80+ in about three hours).

RPG

• Central heroes
• Main coherent plot
• Developed characters
• Final bosses

MMO

• Sidequests with massive exp/equipment rewards
• Customization (MapleStory is a better one for this, they have character classes divided into warrior, mage, thief, and archer who then get to choose for instance whether the mage wants to be a fire mage, ice mage, or cleric, and later get advanced versions of these with better skills)
• Bonus events (stuff like Christmas parties with special areas, or certain times get some multiple of experience)
• Endless play (the "final" boss can be beaten over and over again, and you can keep playing)

If we want to make the experience quick but still provide some customization, we have the party start at like level ten. The hero has already chosen to be a warrior, the others are about to choose (the hero will probably give suggestions on what a good party needs, though). We have them choose their class, and everyone again at like level 50 (master classes). In the mean time, the hero (having played before and introducing the game to offline friends) is showing them all the tricks of fast leveling, such as sidequests and purchasing 3x experience cards (a party experience event that awards outside the battle by variable, then multiplies it, would be good, but it's important to have the variable revert to multiplier 0, if you run). MMOs do sometimes have plot events but they're set by character level. Anyway, the party gets to about the gates of the main villain's castle, oh sorry, server update (which is good because in the original game the pyromancer and the monk are sealed off as classes in development). Game probably crashes completely when they actually are fighting the final boss.

Here's my idea of what classes screen looks like. We'd need character appearance to be custom for each character appearance though (that is, a red hair girl is wearing the costume but has the red hair, likewise an opposite gender character is wearing the gender-appropriate outfit).



The basic classes (that's the top row) are the warrior, priest, wizard, and thief, followed (after the patch) by monk and pyromancer (greyed out at the time, and unchoosable). By the point that the monk and pyromancer join, the party has already chosen their classes and can't go back. The bottom row is whatever the chosen class branches into (they shouldn't show more than about three options).

For instance, the warrior can then become Commander, Paladin, or Knight.

Commander- Tactical abilities (like causing blind status using sand attacks, or poisoning the enemies. Also includes party buff abilities)
Paladin- Healing and holy attacks, along with better sword and shield skills.
Knight- Elemental sword attacks (like using a fire sword that turn)

The Priest then is divided into Shaman (healing plus natural), Oracle (healing plus curse), or Bishop (high level healing, buffs, and resurrection).
The Wizard is divided into Flame Mage (different from the pyromancer in that they like all the wizard types, learn from spell books rather than levels. They also have magical support abilities like Absorb Mana), Weather Mage (ice and thunder mage, also from books), or Archmage (can learn any books including some rare ones, but each new spell they learn takes one level away from them).
The Thief is divided into Archer (ranged physical attacks), Con Artist (can use thief like skills, in addition to the Steal ability of the thief. These also include disguise abilities which can be used outside of battle to enter secret areas normally closed off) , and Ninja (ranged melee attacks, elemental powers, and also has disguise. Versatile but not very strong).
The other two are... actually not very customizable (they're expansion classes), but are more powerful than the others, gaining skills by level at a fairly frequent rate in the case of the pyromancer, and in the case of the monk, gradually becoming much more powerful without weapons than with (due to altered unarmed attacks).

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 22 2012, 01:48 PM

[Kaust]

It sounds like you want the extra time simply to create more of an mmo feeling but if we were to destroy this layer quickly no-one would have time to pick flaws in it. I mean racing up 80 lvls for the sake of it? When they could just be started at some reasonably high level anyways. Adding fetch quests for no reason other than levels? When we could just move on with the plot. These work in mmos because you need to become familiar with the maps and because there isn't really an aim other than becoming stronger, but that is not the case here.

If someone wants to play a legit mmo they wont be playing our game. We just need it similar enough in looks and mechanics that it brings a smile of recognition to the players face, an "I see what they did there" now and then, but ultimately these are 'gimmicks of that reality' that the player is distracted by as we move towards the next layer and its own new set of reality bending rules/gimmicks. And lets not forget the next layer, you think people will be psyched that they spent the last several hours building that character just to have it destroyed? The in-game characters should feel that devastation, us as players should feel empathy at most.

As a side note: how about stat customization rather than, or in conjunction with, strict classes (possibly implied classes like high dex builds as thieves, high sta mixed with atk for knight, that sorta thing). Seems like a way to add more customization in less time.

[bulmabriefs144]

Not for no reason. There could be hidden items and other rewards.

Alternatively, we could have them starting at about level forty, and have them already chosen their classes, and already know each other (old friends from the game). The second class change is at level 50, and the recommended (but not required) level is 80. The sidequests help superfast levelling here too, but you can probably class up just with pure grind at some of the medium level enemies to level 50.

We should make this a complete world, even if people don't intend to explore it. Because this is how most online games are, more world than you'd possibly use just for those 1% who do travel around.

As a side note: how about stat customization rather than, or in conjunction with, strict classes (possibly implied classes like high dex builds as thieves, high sta mixed with atk for knight, that sorta thing). Seems like a way to add more customization in less time.

If we had character customization after a certain level (10 for first, 50 for the second), you can assume that the characters starting at level 40 have already made their initial choice. You could then have a weighted choice for the two latecomers - one starts at level one, but insists upon being a monk whenever you choose something else, and the other has hacked a level 30 character right off the bat (due to stat builds mentioned above, this gets them past the heavy grind and for maximum stat customization) - to keep this strict class system for the early part, allowing only late game customization.

And lets not forget the next layer, you think people will be psyched that they spent the last several hours building that character just to have it destroyed? The in-game characters should feel that devastation, us as players should feel empathy at most.

Also, it might be cool to devise a save script system, the characters might later be able to "import" their character class/abilities with the help of the programmers and some computer code. (Sorta a script that could make a save file that could then be imported to another engine when a similar script was called, giving the levels and classes to the new characters) This way you'd have a sense that the characters really are those they customized, and you wouldn't be all like "nooooo, my custom Dark Angel can never be used again." We should experiment with save scripts, and see if we can't get it to do something as a separate process from normal saves. Either that, or a "class download" event that lets them rechoose their classes, and customize again.

Or some sort of password that the player needs to write down that's basically two parts for each character with as many codes as there are characters in the original layer's party. Basically, strings of code separated by dashes like 0159-0f2e-06ff-(etcetera) These are names as in hero names so it would be 0763 (Commander = hex 7 for class, 99 = hex 63) for a level 99 Commander. Rare items aren't imported though. This is doable, but extraordinarily tedious. For the writer of the code, and the person involved probably would wanna haul around a code on a flash drive or something. You'd also have to rule out certain codes like characters starting at a level lower than their intended start point (40 for the initial four, 30 for the pyromancer since that one hacked, and 1 for the monk), and for characters having a class that's not their own (hence there are six such name codes instead of just one). That's only about 4x99 codes for each character, no big deal. Yea....

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 23 2012, 09:37 AM

[Sparrowsmith]

It sounds like you want the extra time simply to create more of an mmo feeling but if we were to destroy this layer quickly no-one would have time to pick flaws in it. I mean racing up 80 lvls for the sake of it? When they could just be started at some reasonably high level anyways. Adding fetch quests for no reason other than levels? When we could just move on with the plot. These work in mmos because you need to become familiar with the maps and because there isn't really an aim other than becoming stronger, but that is not the case here.

If someone wants to play a legit mmo they wont be playing our game. We just need it similar enough in looks and mechanics that it brings a smile of recognition to the players face, an "I see what they did there" now and then, but ultimately these are 'gimmicks of that reality' that the player is distracted by as we move towards the next layer and its own new set of reality bending rules/gimmicks. And lets not forget the next layer, you think people will be psyched that they spent the last several hours building that character just to have it destroyed? The in-game characters should feel that devastation, us as players should feel empathy at most.

As a side note: how about stat customization rather than, or in conjunction with, strict classes (possibly implied classes like high dex builds as thieves, high sta mixed with atk for knight, that sorta thing). Seems like a way to add more customization in less time.

This sums up my feelings.

I want to focus on the fun aspects of a game, not the level building. I think level 40-50 ought to do it. Room to grow, but the focus won't be on levels. The focus will be on equipment, skills, battling.

And we should try and transfer layer 1 progress to layer 2

[thatbennyguy]

I reckon we should almost ignore the MMO idea, because it breaks the characterization, and we should just create suspension of disbelief by saying that these four people are engaging together in a 4-player party, turn-based system and whatnot. Everything is like a regular single-player RPG, except somehow they're all playing together. There's gotta be some congruity of style and battle systems throughout the layers, so this layer should introduce our Level 2 feel of battle within that. So what I'm basically saying, is let's kind of push aside this "MMO" thing and get to work on what actually happens within the dungeon

[ShanattoGunner]

Hey guys sorry school and famliy has kept me away.

Please try to keep posts relevant to the thread and contributory, thanks- Kaust