Need feedback/idea for skill learning system Options

[Icenick99]

I feel that the heart of all games is the battle/skill system, so I decided to start building a solid base then work in story, maps, characters, etc...

So originally what I wanted to do was create a fantasy world where there are 10 elements, 5 major (fire,water,earth,lightning,wind) and 5 addition combinations (i.e: water+wind = Ice).
The way you would learn skills would be like FFX sphere grid, each character would have some starting point Fire/Wind/Lighting/etc... The whole idea is that healers or healing spells appear only in certain elements such as lighting, defense and tank abilities would lie in earth.

The problem, building a sphere grid is not a simple task, let alone implementing it into RPG Maker. Also there is a lack of uniqueness when everyone can do everything.

To counter this I wanted to include a secondary learning system or unique skill that each character will have (example FF3/6).

Finally I liked the concept the ideas and the spells, however binding it to my story was the hard part. The problem is that the story Im set on and the abilities don't make sense together.

I want to make a game somewhat simpler to X-men, in the sense that your main party will be "mutants" with a unique power set. Taking this approach I feel limits options, if you want healing abilities you need to take the lightning "mutant". You may say well whats the big deal, many rpgs have done this before white mages only learn healing. Also a power set like telekinesis does not reflect well in RPG turn based games, and I dont want the mutants to only be limited to controlling 1 type of element.

First off when I was creating my elements I had a vision, a sense of mastery over an element, such that lightning can shock people, restore life or even create a flash to blind enemies... What im getting at is the lightning grid offers customization so that your hero doesn't have to be a healer if you don't want, lightning in nature does more then heal it can strike you down.
Secondly the learning system would be very linear, even if I allow multiple options and paths to learn different skills. To counter this a job system might work, but again the story takes place in the semi-modern world, with humans, it kinda doesnt make sense to have swordsman, warrior, ninja, etc... jobs. But thats my opinion.

Sorry for the long wall of text. If you stuck it out this far thanks, and in conclusion, I want to bind my story with my element skill system, Im not sure how, some good systems would be similar to espers or materia, but they eliminate my sphere grid idea.
The ideal situation would be to have my heroes have 1 Unique mutant ability, the ability to learn elements and include a job of some sort (job more for the weapon and passive stats, i.e: Theif, Warrior, etc..)

I feel like its too much and doesnt make sense. Any ideas or feedback?

[Laue]

I think you are trying to do too much at once. You should try to strip down all of this to it's basics, like the elements part. And then add stuff slowly from there. Complexity for the sake of complexity is not the way to go. Start small, and then you can get a better picture of what you should do next. The best systems are easy to understand and hard to utilize to it's full potential.

See: Persona 3 & 4. Combat is easy to understand. So is basic fusion. But the things you can potentially do with that are almost limitless.
Disgaea series is similar, but it just has shittons of simple things linked with each other, so it's a bad example.

[Icenick99]

You know what Laue, your absolutely right! I realized this yesterday when trying to explain what I wanted to do.
Im strongly leaning towards my elements (the learning part is still undecided). Basically I need to think of a way to allow heroes to learn magic. I.E: How do you explain Wolverine casting a fire ball? Not saying my game is like that but none the less magic is not an inherent ability.

I want to start expanding the story but I feel that how you learn skills and what types will change the story and need to be ironed out before progress can be made. Im stuck its been a few weeks I want to progress in my game!

[Laue]

If it's like that, you can always explain that kind of thing as a mutation or something. That mutation could be triggered by something. It's not that hard to explain why.

[Icenick99]

If it's like that, you can always explain that kind of thing as a mutation or something. That mutation could be triggered by something. It's not that hard to explain why.

Magic is the elements. I was thinking that magic is a part of the world, humans and mutants can learn it as well as trolls/orcs (using them as an example). But the mutants have a unique ability such as ... which will add a uniqueness to each character...

Im still finding it hard to combine magic learning system in a smooth way.

[rewells]

I feel that the heart of all games is the battle/skill system, so I decided to start building a solid base then work in story, maps, characters, etc...

Good approach :-) I don't like sphere grids because they usually end up being very linear - you generally have small decisions like "do I want to spend extra EXP on more HP or learn another skill now and get the HP later?", but that's pretty much the limit.

One solution could be adding skill classes to equipment. Maybe since your settings is modern, there can be like ipads or something that can control certain elements, so any character can use those elements if they have it equipped. Another option is making combo spells that require multiple characters, like in Chrono Trigger, so your ice character and your wind character could use a strong ice + wind spell if they are both in your party (I have no idea how to implement that in RM, though). Either way, I'd recommend making some charts/graphic organizers to help plot out your ideas. I like the idea of an RPG about mutants and I hope to see a demo eventually :-)

[Icenick99]

I feel that the heart of all games is the battle/skill system, so I decided to start building a solid base then work in story, maps, characters, etc...

Good approach :-) I don't like sphere grids because they usually end up being very linear - you generally have small decisions like "do I want to spend extra EXP on more HP or learn another skill now and get the HP later?", but that's pretty much the limit.

One solution could be adding skill classes to equipment. Maybe since your settings is modern, there can be like ipads or something that can control certain elements, so any character can use those elements if they have it equipped. Another option is making combo spells that require multiple characters, like in Chrono Trigger, so your ice character and your wind character could use a strong ice + wind spell if they are both in your party (I have no idea how to implement that in RM, though). Either way, I'd recommend making some charts/graphic organizers to help plot out your ideas. I like the idea of an RPG about mutants and I hope to see a demo eventually :-)

Thanks! The sphere grid is so hard to make though, and I imagine it being a nightmare for a noob rpg maker like me lol.

I was thinking about equipment for learning skills but not the elements I have A LOT of skills per each element.

I want the world to be semi-modern, so before ipads per say (I know it was an example lol) I envision it like FF7 or FF10, in the sense where there is 1 large city (government) and the rest are huts and lower class. Cars may not exist in this world or be very rare, I can see some trains since trains have been around for a while and definitely no airplanes, classic airships for me lol.

I have maybe 40% of my skills (elements) written down and yes they do interact with each other, I was inspired by chrono trigger but its more then just Wind + Water = Ice based attack. Each Element has a state associated with it i.e: Water causes you to be damp while in turn you take more damage from electric, less from fire, and Ice can freeze instead of slow. I dont wanna reveal too much about interactions especially right now but thats a very basic example.

I was thinking having people have an attunement to 1 specific element (like Chrono Trigger) but through mastery and progress can expand to another one, even all of them!
I was never a fan of FF9 where if you wanted Black Magic your party had to have Vivi in it. I want to get away from that hence my sphere grid idea. Its the best way I can think of it, and I may just have the grid only for skills and not stats (I feel that may not be the best way though). Is there another system that can fit my model? Where you have someone whos natural source of energy comes for Fire but say hey, I dont just want to burn stuff I want to get some Earth powers and build my defense!

Yeah I have the story outlined in my head, its going to be a somewhat dark story where your not interested in saving the little girl's lost cat. Humans being the majority fear the mutants and treat them differently. I'll leave the story for another time, I do intend to get a working demo hopefully this year but I have a lot ahead of me.

Im really stuck and need to think of a great idea to tie elements, humans and mutants together. I kinda feel like an esper system could work in some ways, maybe have a sphere grid and unlocking an "esper" would expand which paths you can take.
I like the materia system but when you think about it its kinda dumb, for 1500 gold I can cast fire! Turning any average Joe into a mage.

Anyway... Looking forward to some more feedback bounce some ideas and hopefully think of new ones while chatting here, im open to any suggestions if anyone wants to put their 2 cents .

This post has been edited by Icenick99: Apr 8 2012, 05:23 PM

[rewells]

I think something like the job system in Final Fantasy Tactics might work for your idea. In that game, characters start off having access to different job classes, and leveling up in each class gives access to new jobs. For instance, a character can first be either a squire (fighter) or chemist (healer) - if you level up as a squire you can become a knight or a monk, and if you level up as a chemist you can become a white or black mage, and to become a summoner you must master both white and black magic (or something like that - it's been a while since I played). So theoretically every skill is available to every character, but it is unlikely that you can max out every job for every character during a play through. I generally dislike it when every character can use every skill; as much as I love FF7, there is no incentive to vary your party members because anyone can use any materia - the only difference between characters is their limit breaks. At least in FFT skill growth is structured in a way that you have to carefully plan how each character progresses skill-wise.

I feel that the heart of all games is the battle/skill system, so I decided to start building a solid base then work in story, maps, characters, etc...

Good approach :-) I don't like sphere grids because they usually end up being very linear - you generally have small decisions like "do I want to spend extra EXP on more HP or learn another skill now and get the HP later?", but that's pretty much the limit.

One solution could be adding skill classes to equipment. Maybe since your settings is modern, there can be like ipads or something that can control certain elements, so any character can use those elements if they have it equipped. Another option is making combo spells that require multiple characters, like in Chrono Trigger, so your ice character and your wind character could use a strong ice + wind spell if they are both in your party (I have no idea how to implement that in RM, though). Either way, I'd recommend making some charts/graphic organizers to help plot out your ideas. I like the idea of an RPG about mutants and I hope to see a demo eventually :-)

Thanks! The sphere grid is so hard to make though, and I imagine it being a nightmare for a noob rpg maker like me lol.

I was thinking about equipment for learning skills but not the elements I have A LOT of skills per each element.

I want the world to be semi-modern, so before ipads per say (I know it was an example lol) I envision it like FF7 or FF10, in the sense where there is 1 large city (government) and the rest are huts and lower class. Cars may not exist in this world or be very rare, I can see some trains since trains have been around for a while and definitely no airplanes, classic airships for me lol.

I have maybe 40% of my skills (elements) written down and yes they do interact with each other, I was inspired by chrono trigger but its more then just Wind + Water = Ice based attack. Each Element has a state associated with it i.e: Water causes you to be damp while in turn you take more damage from electric, less from fire, and Ice can freeze instead of slow. I dont wanna reveal too much about interactions especially right now but thats a very basic example.

I was thinking having people have an attunement to 1 specific element (like Chrono Trigger) but through mastery and progress can expand to another one, even all of them!
I was never a fan of FF9 where if you wanted Black Magic your party had to have Vivi in it. I want to get away from that hence my sphere grid idea. Its the best way I can think of it, and I may just have the grid only for skills and not stats (I feel that may not be the best way though). Is there another system that can fit my model? Where you have someone whos natural source of energy comes for Fire but say hey, I dont just want to burn stuff I want to get some Earth powers and build my defense!

Yeah I have the story outlined in my head, its going to be a somewhat dark story where your not interested in saving the little girl's lost cat. Humans being the majority fear the mutants and treat them differently. I'll leave the story for another time, I do intend to get a working demo hopefully this year but I have a lot ahead of me.

Im really stuck and need to think of a great idea to tie elements, humans and mutants together. I kinda feel like an esper system could work in some ways, maybe have a sphere grid and unlocking an "esper" would expand which paths you can take.
I like the materia system but when you think about it its kinda dumb, for 1500 gold I can cast fire! Turning any average Joe into a mage.

Anyway... Looking forward to some more feedback bounce some ideas and hopefully think of new ones while chatting here, im open to any suggestions if anyone wants to put their 2 cents .

[Titanhex]

This actually might be good in design critique. It's a bit of a gray line, really, but since it's a lot more specific to a game in production I'll put it there.

Can I suggest adding pictures or organizing your design into more than long text? This can help you greatly.

[Icenick99]

This actually might be good in design critique. It's a bit of a gray line, really, but since it's a lot more specific to a game in production I'll put it there.

Can I suggest adding pictures or organizing your design into more than long text? This can help you greatly.

Great Idea! And thxs! This forum seems less active though :S.

Uploaded some pictures.

Here is what a very crude draft of what I was thinking for the elements, a sphere grid system, that requires mastery of Water and Wind to learn Ice. The five basic ones are the outer, the 5 fusion elements are the inner.


Another option I was thinking was a Diablo 2 type skill tree, excuse the WoW icons lol. But this is the Frost/Ice tree, I was thinking at this point having the element assigned to a specific hero.



Now im thinking I want both, the sphere grid for elements for customization (you can earn SP after each battle) and the Skill tree like in WoW talents, that every level up you earn a point and can choose character specific traits (not like the image uploaded).
I would like the use of jobs in there more then the talents per say, but my problem is tieing it together. In a world where there are humans and mutants, how come theres magic? Why are there these elements (aka Magic), the talents make sense because it can relate to their mutant powers, but how do I tie learning magic to mutants?

This post has been edited by Icenick99: Apr 15 2012, 10:55 PM

[rewells]

Great charts! It looks like you've put a lot of thought into this. But I'd be cautious of using both a grid and a tree. Try programming and perfecting one, and then see if you still think you need the other. It makes sense to me that mutants would have superpowers, and that the more experienced they get at using them, the more powerful they become - although, I'm not sure if a skill tree/sphere grid makes sense in this context (I actually don't think sphere grids ever make sense, but that's just me). I'd say narrow down your ideas to your absolute favorites and start programming, then you can post some demos and we can offer better feedback.

This actually might be good in design critique. It's a bit of a gray line, really, but since it's a lot more specific to a game in production I'll put it there.

Can I suggest adding pictures or organizing your design into more than long text? This can help you greatly.

Great Idea! And thxs! This forum seems less active though :S.

Uploaded some pictures.

Here is what a very crude draft of what I was thinking for the elements, a sphere grid system, that requires mastery of Water and Wind to learn Ice. The five basic ones are the outer, the 5 fusion elements are the inner.


Another option I was thinking was a Diablo 2 type skill tree, excuse the WoW icons lol. But this is the Frost/Ice tree, I was thinking at this point having the element assigned to a specific hero.



Now im thinking I want both, the sphere grid for elements for customization (you can earn SP after each battle) and the Skill tree like in WoW talents, that every level up you earn a point and can choose character specific traits (not like the image uploaded).
I would like the use of jobs in there more then the talents per say, but my problem is tieing it together. In a world where there are humans and mutants, how come theres magic? Why are there these elements (aka Magic), the talents make sense because it can relate to their mutant powers, but how do I tie learning magic to mutants?

[Icenick99]

Great charts! It looks like you've put a lot of thought into this. But I'd be cautious of using both a grid and a tree. Try programming and perfecting one, and then see if you still think you need the other. It makes sense to me that mutants would have superpowers, and that the more experienced they get at using them, the more powerful they become - although, I'm not sure if a skill tree/sphere grid makes sense in this context (I actually don't think sphere grids ever make sense, but that's just me). I'd say narrow down your ideas to your absolute favorites and start programming, then you can post some demos and we can offer better feedback.

Thanks, I agree with you, putting too much gets bothersome.
Unfortunately I want both, magic and special skills, the magic is elements, the special skills are the unique talents for mutants, much like how wolverine can regenerate, increased speed and senses, etc...
The key here is I want my mutants not to have a single skill like Fire or Wind, I want to save that so anyone can learn.

I think a traditional leveling system that unlocks talent points in the form of a skill tree would please the mutant side, while the open concept of a magical sphere grid gives customization to players. Im not a fan of designing a sphere grid, in addition the way I explained it wouldnt make sense to have HP or stat notes in the sphere grid, instead they would be part of the talents... Still up in the air on that one.

Im looking for suggestions how to include magic given the element system in a sense able way. A way to learn it like Materia would be great but it doesnt work since the core concept is mastery of elements expands your grid (I.E: Learning Ice typically requires players to have X skills from Water and Wind, then can move into Ice).

Thanks Rewells, im soooo stuck, I feel unable to even begin to start a demo at this point, I don't have a logically way for mutants to learn magic