The First Layer, In-depth Options

[Sparrowsmith]

We do need some more hints that this is a game, but something like a chat option is too obvious.

[Kaust]

All right, well here's a few other ways to imply its a game in form rather than in plot;
Inventories: these should become more restrictive as we move up the layers, think this was touched on before but here's my take: infinite> limited space (like Pokemon Red/Blue)>finally the addition of weight (like Baldur's Gate or Fallout 3)
Menu screens: doesn't pause the game because its online> pauses because its offline right? (I never understood what type of game layer2 represented and I kinda just assumed The Sims )>doesn't pause and probably shouldn't even have a menu screen (if possible) seeing as this is the closest to rl
Movement:I thought adding in more options of movement would be kinda like showing more dimensions, so the basic four way movement> adding in jump> jump and eight directions
Levelling:stat and skill customisation (this is essentially the biggest game of all the layers so players should have more control; however I know this is already disputed)>skill customization only- people can choose what they want to do, but are stuck with their natural attributes (not to say they dont improve statwise, just adhere to certain affinities)>people don't 'level' in reality so individual attributes should gain insignificant improvements over time and usage (for example; a particular stat or ability with a certain weapon)

And then other things like graphics, puzzles, items that would be in canon with each reality (for example; while swords exist in our reality most people would choose a gun over it as a means of protection, also I spose magic is a no-no in later layers).

Anyways, additions, alterations and dismissals to these are all welcome.

(I know this wasn't first layer specific but the general ideas thread is dead and we were just talking about this so...)

[MEands]

Ooh, that could be cool, but it does make players a bit stressed to not be able to pause their game, but I kinda like the idea. So maybe the menu is just a dropdown near the bottom of the screen, so it doesn't actually cover the screen and the player can still see if danger is approaching and exit out of the menu.
Layer 2 is basically the sims only more advanced, it's a replica of real life basically. So yeah, this one is able to save sounds good.
Layer 3 you're not able to save, I like that, since layer 3 isn't exactly that dangerous except for when the rogue program gets into the system. There should be a computer somewhere that allows you to "save data" or something.

Adding more directions to walk also means making more sprites, we could do that, I just don't see the need for that when the maps are generally going to be left right up down.

I'm not even sure what kind of battle system we have in layer 2, or even if there is one. I remember we were talking about layer 2 having maybe puzzle based battles.

[Sparrowsmith]

For saving, why not have certain actions save the game?

In layer 1, perhaps a book of some kind, a way of recording progress.
In layer 2, sleeping. Or perhaps you talk to someone in your party and they say something along the lines of: "Something up?" "Yeah I'm just wondering if we're all caught up." and then the save menu opens.
In layer 3, you approach a computer and 'backup' your data if you're a programmer. If you're Johnny then... I have nothing.

[MEands]

If we're Johnny perhaps we implement autosave? Whenever you enter a new room it saves your location.

[Sparrowsmith]

That could work, alternatively:
"So the doctors think you might have some memory loss, mind if I check what you remember?"
"-yes
-no"
yes opens the save windows
no returns a message
"There'll be time for that later."

Of course, the first time should be forced so that the player learns.

I'd like to make saving as fluid as possible, like there' a reason you're saving.
Anyway, this isn't first layer relevant.
Let's get back to the first layer. We mentioned a while back that information on Matryoshka has slipped into all the layers, should we have books mentioning him in the library?

During the conversation with Matryoshka (if there is one) we can mention that it tried to warn us.

[bulmabriefs144]

We could have a wholly variable-based custom levelling system, or maybe an "AP system" where levelling improves mainly hp/mp, while abilities increase when you have enough points to buy ability-ups. All battles might give 1-5 AP, but you have to have AP equal to your current to add more (or something). Also, mebbe if you have a certain amount of stat (like Strength 15), you can gain a new skill.

[Sparrowsmith]

Every level you get 3-5 attribute points and 1 ability point.
You can also get extra ability points through items, as well as weapons and armor that give attribute bonuses.
Ability points can be reset, but attribute points can't.

certain abilities can't be unlocked unless attributes are at a certain levels, other abilities require other abilities.
Certain weapons require certain abilities or certain attribute levels to wield, same goes for armor.

This sound good?

We could also do the AP thing. Once an ability is unlocked, it levels up via AP, but only if that ability is used in the battle.

[bulmabriefs144]

Sounds kinda like Legacies of Dondoran (one of my favs) but I like that attribute part.

The latter one sounds vaguely like FF2J or Romance SaGa (at least one I've played). It's a bit tricky to implement (the biggest part is stuff like HP/MP and defense, since doing that straight involves damage calculation each battle) though.

[Sparrowsmith]

Hmmmm, I guess this stuff is difficult to figure out until we start actually making it.
I also think if we make a system this complicated, we should use the same engine for layer 1 and layer 2, or make a code that can easily be translated from one engine to the other.

You probably have a better idea than me of what is possible to code, so I'll take your word on this.

[bulmabriefs144]

The second code isn't that hard (you can have it just for one character, in which case it's alot easier than trying to do for two games). The first requires basically making a custom menu that calls itself whenever you level, and the second is tricky but not impossible.

Both of them, it's helpful to have a outside battle rewards screen. This is pretty much what it boils down to anyway, since you also talked about party splitting.

[MEands]

So I think I've got a pretty solid design for the library puzzle. I don't have a way to get a picture on yet, but here's the basic layout.
So there are eight rooms

CODE

S          H          M
  |           |
R  -      O           T
       /      |
            E

E: The entrance to the library. This has about six rows of bookshelves. The final row has a gap leading to a wall, which actually is part of the cylendar bookcase in the middle. There is a blue book in one of the shelves, it will stand out. The blue book turns the bookcase 45 degrees clockwise. There is a door to the study, but it is initially locked.
R: This is just a basic room, it has more bookshelves, however these books are more detailed and descriptive. (More about the dark past of Rasuel). There is a red book in the bookshelf that turns the cylendar bookcase 90 degrees clockwise.
O: The cylendar bookcase. The lines represent doorways. The way it is facing now is how it should look once the blue book has been activated, so it has been turned 45 degrees.
T: This is the storage room, it is dark in here so a light source is needed. Once lit you can see a couple boxes and such, also a dinky little bookshelf in the corner. This shelf needs to be dusted to reveal a green book. This green book rotates the cylendar bookcase 180 degrees counterclockwise.
S: This is the study, it connect to R via a locked door. There's a desk and some planning stuff, as well as a large metal door in the upper right corner. This door leads to a sort of catwalk, looking over the main hallway (H). There is a switch which unlocks half of the door. The other half needs to be unlocked from another switch.
H: This is the main hallway leading to the bedchambers (or whatever is after the library). It has a double locked door at the front, two switches have to be activated in order to enter the room.
M: This is the machine room. It consists of a small hallway with a ladder leading up to a large (about 9x9) catwalk with another switch. This is how you fully unlock the door.

Now all I have to figure out is a good way to make this challenging, right now it's too easy, you can do it in about 3 steps.

This post has been edited by MEands: Aug 27 2012, 04:44 PM

[bulmabriefs144]

I was under the impression that it was multiple bookshelves that had to be turned to form bridges, and things move to create steps/ladders. With a single bookshelf once you've got it straight, the puzle is done. This is more of a 3D puzzle from my understanding, not multiple side-rooms.

There should be some trigger books though, to activate ladders and such for reaching new sections or something.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Aug 27 2012, 06:47 PM

[MEands]

Oh, well if we go with that idea then I'm kinda at a loss for ideas.

[bulmabriefs144]

This is what I thought you guys were saying.



Some sort of vertical shaft with first maybe a simple puzzle involving book shelving, then the whole rotation puzzle, and finally maybe using books as bridges by rotating or pushing them.

[MEands]

Oh, this is a tower? I had thought that the only upward movement would be the optional balcony.

I was thinking this dungeon should only have 2 puzzles, otherwise it would become repetative and frustrating.

I still kinda like my rotation puzzle design, but if everyone is against that we could do something else. The thing is, the puzzle I designed isn't finished, it's really easy right now, and it will be much more difficult and would require more thought to solve, that's just a rough design.

[bulmabriefs144]

The balcony is presumably downstairs from the attic. Room two has a door that opens when the puzzle is unlocked, that heads downstairs. There should also be some sort of switch to a retractable ladder, on one of the balconies (so monsters can't get up, but once you've fought them, you can get down).

Or let's consider merging floor one and two (floor one, you basically rotate books so you can climb a stack then you climb one of the shelves to a high ladder, leading to floor 3... ummm, floor 2), and the balcony is essentially on the second floor.

I think what I'm getting at with all this confused rambling is a library with a hidden switch among the books that unlocks the first ladder (puzzle 0) where then you use the bookshelves as ladders and bridges by moving/rotating them as a 3D puzzle (puzzle 1), and at the top you have that teamwork door puzzle (puzzle 2). Aside from that, not really sure how tall this shaft is, but it should be enough so people aren't like "I can just walk onto the balcony, easy."

What I was envisioning was something more like this (the whole knocking stuff over and using it as tools).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuDAiQGSrTE

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Sep 3 2012, 05:24 AM

[Sparrowsmith]

Okay, so I think we have a decent grasp on how this puzzle is going to look.

Have we discussed what the 'alternate' path contains? The one that's very difficult but doesn't involve any puzzles.

[MEands]

Basically this.

It's a large room with a ton of enemies, if you can get past all of them you'll have bypassed a large part of the game, but perhaps you get a different type of boss fight.

[Sparrowsmith]

So random encounters, or a set number of battles?