Puzzle Discussion, What makes a good puzzle? Options

[MEands]

I absolutely love solving puzzles in video games, but when it comes to the "go right and get the key to go left and get the key to go up" then I get frustrated. I feel happy when the answer to a puzzle was clearly sitting in front of you, but you were unable to see it without further examination.

I want to know what everyone thinks makes a good puzzle, and if you're in a really creative mood, then just write out an entire plan for a map's puzzle.

[Laue]

I really have mixed feelings about puzzles in RPGs. Some can be done well, but usually they are just a hindrance. Thrown in there just for the sake of being there. My favorite RPGs have no puzzles at all. The only puzzle is how to optimize your party. But I suppose it's a way of overcompensating for lack of character customization or boring battles.

So yeah, unless it really should be there story-wise, I don't think there should be puzzles. Look up Persona 3 & 4, they got no puzzles. It's puzzle enough how to use your time efficiently, fuse what with what, etc.

[MEands]

Well I wasn't exactly talking about just RPG puzzles. Just in general, when I think of exciting puzzles/levels, I always think of the Stone Tower Temple from Majora's Mask. The flipping and everything was so fun.

[Laue]

I cannot really comment on that since I never played any Legend of Zelda game. In my opinion, puzzles should usually stay in their respective genres, usually point & click adventure games. If you can design a puzzle that is fun in an RPG, then go ahead. But fun is subjective.

As for non-RPG games, I like where you pick up some kind of abilities/powers which allow you to access previously unavailable areas, sort of open-world. Something like Okami and Darksiders. In various dungeons you get to use and learn all about those skills/tools, with a boss that is also all about the tools you have. And of course, lot's of side areas requiring certain combinations of said tools/powers. I guess something like that could made in an RPG, if your skills can be used both in battle and as a tool outside of it (Ar Tonelico?).

[rewells]

I've seen some decent puzzles designed designed in RM games. See my review of "Quick Quest" . I agree RPG designers (me included) get too comfortable with fetch quests and lock/key puzzles. I'll do some thinking on this and maybe write a longer post on it in the future. Thanks for posing the question though, because I'd love to see what other people have to offer.

I absolutely love solving puzzles in video games, but when it comes to the "go right and get the key to go left and get the key to go up" then I get frustrated. I feel happy when the answer to a puzzle was clearly sitting in front of you, but you were unable to see it without further examination.

I want to know what everyone thinks makes a good puzzle, and if you're in a really creative mood, then just write out an entire plan for a map's puzzle.

[darkhalo]

Hmm,,,puzzle games in rpg's. I can't see why every rpg should include some really. First thing that comes to mind are the
adventure genre games such as the RR series, Tomb Raider, P Eve etc. FF7 was a classic in terms of testing the bounds
of logic....all good fun.
First of all, puzzles have to fit a role, ie to get from A to B....a good example are the Saga Frontiers...frustrating but hey...
even the earlier Suikodens are nail biting looking back.
Keep the puzzles simple, localised, realistic and relative.
As to examples....floor tile puzzles can be as complicated as you want to open doors, collecting artifacts for a person who
can help you continue on, finding those secret switches, text puzzles. All been done before, but its how you execute them.
Oh, and make the effort worthwhile...nothing worse than a 25 minute chase, just to claim a potion at the end of it .

[Titanhex]

Since this isn't about a specific puzzle design I'm going to move it to Theory and Design.

[Kaust]

As for non-RPG games, I like where you pick up some kind of abilities/powers which allow you to access previously unavailable areas, sort of open-world. Something like Okami and Darksiders. In various dungeons you get to use and learn all about those skills/tools, with a boss that is also all about the tools you have. And of course, lot's of side areas requiring certain combinations of said tools/powers. I guess something like that could made in an RPG, if your skills can be used both in battle and as a tool outside of it (Ar Tonelico?).

The Golden Sun series is probably a pretty good example of this in rpgs as you solve puzzles with the powers you can also use in battle. They are also relevant to the story (as its one of the few games to explain the existence of magic in their world).
The games also had some great jump puzzles (which are super easy to copy xD), but the makers got too dependent on those.

There are some puzzles that are really common (practically conventional) in rpgs. Everyone's played a minecart puzzle xD. The best way to get some ideas of puzzles that work well within games just play a bunch of different games and see what crop up the most often.

[bulmabriefs144]

I really have mixed feelings about puzzles in RPGs. Some can be done well, but usually they are just a hindrance. Thrown in there just for the sake of being there. My favorite RPGs have no puzzles at all. The only puzzle is how to optimize your party. But I suppose it's a way of overcompensating for lack of character customization or boring battles.

So yeah, unless it really should be there story-wise, I don't think there should be puzzles. Look up Persona 3 & 4, they got no puzzles. It's puzzle enough how to use your time efficiently, fuse what with what, etc.

Games I don't play, and have never wanted to play. Battles without any trick to them (which is itself a type of puzzle) are boring. Character customization is kinda boring too, unless done well.

Zelda, on the other hand, is fun. Good games should have puzzles like zelda. Easy to understand, but sometimes difficult to solve, with tools and components to help in the solving. Some of the later zelda games are on DS and have puzzles where you shout/blow or close the lid to solve a puzzle.

The most interesting puzzles however are not from zelda but from an old arcade game called Tower of Druaga. Stuff like killing enemies in a sequence or hitting the exit door with a fireball, or using a konami style code. Which brings us to another aspect of puzzles. Solving them can be optional matters for rare treasure, rather than mandatory affairs to solve the dungeon.

[MEands]

Gosh the DS zelda puzzle took me forever.

How does a code puzzle work?

[Moonpearl]

RPG players definitely don't like puzzles, because they are opposite by essence - a puzzle requires you to think, while a (classical) RPG is merely self-unfolding and quite repetitive, which actually makes thinking counterproductive. In short, you don't play a RPG to challenge your mind, but rather to enjoy the story, graphics and music. If you ever want to put a puzzle in a RPG, you have to keep in mind that people looking for a RPG don't expect to find puzzles, and people looking for puzzles don't expect to find some in a RPG.

For this reason, puzzles in RPG are often ridiculously simple, as to not drive players away. The designers sometimes want them so simple that the solution you'd imagine spontaneously is more complicated than what you are actually required to do - which paradoxically enough requires you to think, not to solve the puzzle as such, but to guess what the designer had in mind when he made it up, and imagine an absurdly easier solution. To keep them simple, RPG-types puzzles are often about finding the right place/items/characters at the right time, which does not require thinking at all, but mere trial-and-error. As far as I'm concerned, I always miss those, because I don't like to wander around and hear every NPC's crappy line.

Anyways, for my answer regarding your initial question, I think an important aspect in a puzzle is that the mechanics are simple and clearly identified. For example, a Sokoban-type puzzle, as hard as it may be, offers only a single means of actions: pushing crates - simple and clear. To give obvious "puzzles" a challenging aspect, RPGs often rely on ambiguous/obscure means of action (for example, you not only need to get an item, but also equip it at the right position/on the right character/at the right moment), thus makins the puzzle a mere guessing game with the designer - as stated above. One of the good puzzle experiences I can remember is Soul Reaver 2, because the interactive elements really stick out and can be operated easily. What you can do with them is very intuitive whereas it's not stated clearly, but what you should do with them in order to solve the game is quite tricky to figure out. Moreover, you get new means of action as the game progresses, thus allowing for more sophisticated puzzles which require to combine several of them.

Puzzles are a matter of psychology rather than gaming theory, anyways. You can read my post regarding player-based choices for more insight about this topic.

[rewells]

RPG players definitely don't like puzzles, because they are opposite by essence - a puzzle requires you to think, while a (classical) RPG is merely self-unfolding and quite repetitive, which actually makes thinking counterproductive. In short, you don't play a RPG to challenge your mind, but rather to enjoy the story, graphics and music. If you ever want to put a puzzle in a RPG, you have to keep in mind that people looking for a RPG don't expect to find puzzles, and people looking for puzzles don't expect to find some in a RPG.

I must strongly disagree. A good RPG must be more than good aesthetics and repetitive battles bore me to tears. Final Fantasy: Crisis Core is very pretty, but virtually every battle can be won by just pressing X and occasionally healing - there is absolutely no thought necessary. Deciding party formations, equipment, character growth and battle tactics should be a puzzle. I found the person said that Persona 3 and 4 lack puzzles interesting because in that game battle itself is like a puzzle due to it's intricate elemental system (I'm about to write a huge post on Persona 4's game system). Many games like Golden Sun also incorporate classic RPG battle systems with field puzzles. You do of course raise the important point that it's impossible to please everyone; I'd rather play an RPG with a light story that requires a lot of thinking to beat over an epic story that requires minimum thinking to get through.

[Shaddow]

I agree with Rewells, if I just wanted a great story with no thinking required I would just watch a movie. I believe that games are all interactive and should be in every way that you can possible imagine. Puzzles require the player to stand in the shoes of their characters for a while. We, as players, understand that when we find a key it's going to be for a door we probably haven't come across yet. Do our characters understand this? In some cases maybe, but not always.

I think adding puzzles CAN be a great idea, but like all things, it requires balance. Do not add in an overcomplicated puzzle just to make the game longer or harder. The puzzles should also always make sense for where they are. You are not likely to enter a volcano and have to enter a musical sound code to open a door, unless the boss is some sort of musician of course.

[Tsukihime]

RPG players definitely don't like puzzles, because they are opposite by essence - a puzzle requires you to think, while a (classical) RPG is merely self-unfolding and quite repetitive, which actually makes thinking counterproductive. In short, you don't play a RPG to challenge your mind, but rather to enjoy the story, graphics and music.

Well I'm sorry you don't like to use your head when you're playing a game.

Whether you have proven studies to show that the vast majority of gamers in fact do not like to think, I have no problems forcing players to think about how to solve a puzzle in order to proceed. Naturally, the "role-playing" element of an RPG would be more realistic because there are plenty of challenges in life already.

Or I guess, these players you're talking about are just looking to escape the harsh reality and put themselves in the shoes of an invincible hero that only needs to worry about hacking and slashing and throwing crates around like a barbarian.

If you're talking about "driving players away" then it has nothing to do with whether puzzles make a game good or not; it's all about making money, and they'll appeal to the masses that are pathetically slow if necessary.

A complex puzzle isn't about "randomly" hearing what NPC's are saying; maybe you were just unfortunate to have your share of crappy puzzles throughout your gaming career.

This post has been edited by Tsukihime: Apr 30 2012, 11:42 AM

[thatbennyguy]

Have any of you guys played Braid? That is seriously my favourite puzzle game I've ever played. The fact of the matter is, for a puzzle to be good, it should be unique, challenging, and exciting, with tight mechanics. You should have a feeling of satisfaction after completing it, and it shouldn't be difficult to the point of unreasonable. An example of extremely stupid difficulty to the point of guessing is some point-and-click adventure games, where it comes to a point of combining every item you have with every other item you have to make an item you don't have, and then using that item with everything on your screen to see if it does anything.

That is not a good puzzle.

But the way that Braid lines up its puzzles is intriguing too: you don't have to finish all of the puzzles to finish the game. In fact, most of them you can just skip. Which means that you don't get stuck often. I think one of the silliest things in a puzzle is when you have to finish it to progress, and you can't finish it. Basically that means that you can't progress in a game that you possibly paid for, which leaves the player in a state of disillusionment.

I'll finish this off with a quote from developer Jonathan Blow, maker of Braid:

"If you want people to understand that they accomplish something by unlocking a door or whatever, you have them try it first and then go figure out how to open it. If you play a linear game where you pick up a key and then get to a door and use the key in the door, then the door might as well not be there."

[Kaust]

RPG players definitely don't like puzzles, because they are opposite by essence - a puzzle requires you to think, while a (classical) RPG is merely self-unfolding and quite repetitive, which actually makes thinking counterproductive. In short, you don't play a RPG to challenge your mind, but rather to enjoy the story, graphics and music.

Well I'm sorry you don't like to use your head when you're playing a game.

Wow, such an impressively unnecessary degree of contempt towards a stranger but I'll continue to address your points all the same.

Whether you have proven studies to show that the vast majority of gamers in fact do not like to think, I have no problems forcing players to think about how to solve a puzzle in order to proceed. Naturally, the "role-playing" element of an RPG would be more realistic because there are plenty of challenges in life already.

Essentially saying, "regardless of whether or not you have facts on your side, I'll do what I like with my game". And to a degree you have a right to that; its your intellectual property, you're probably not commercialising it, do what you want right? Wrong, you dont sound like you take the slightest bit of interest in what the player wants. I mean, I like RM because I like RM, but wtf is the point if no-one but me wants to play what I made?

Or I guess, these players you're talking about are just looking to escape the harsh reality and put themselves in the shoes of an invincible hero that only needs to worry about hacking and slashing and throwing crates around like a barbarian.

More unnecessary contempt towards people simply for nothing other than enjoying something different you. Lets move on ('cause don't worry man, its not you, its the rest of the world that dont know shit, much less how to satisfy themselves).

If you're talking about "driving players away" then it has nothing to do with whether puzzles make a game good or not; it's all about making money, and they'll appeal to the masses that are pathetically slow if necessary.

Almost entirely irrelevant, its clear very few users here have commercial aspirations. These guys care about 'driving people away' because that should be a very real concern for every developer.

A complex puzzle isn't about "randomly" hearing what NPC's are saying; maybe you were just unfortunate to have your share of crappy puzzles throughout your gaming career.

Agreed, and I know exactly where you're coming from...but nobody in this thread has said anything like it, arguably this whole thread exists to avoid this possible instance.

But to be a little more contributory (wouldn't want to play hypocrite), yes puzzles do belong in RPGs for a number of reasons; their fun, they break the monotony of dungeon>town>dungeon, and they can provide a challenge. But in regards to this link between roleplaying games and real life:
1)ALL games require some degree of roleplaying. You are always puttting yourself in another's shoes.
2)I have never had to complete a floor puzzle to get through a door irl. Ever.

[Tsukihime]

Wrong, you dont sound like you take the slightest bit of interest in what the player wants. I mean, I like RM because I like RM, but wtf is the point if no-one but me wants to play what I made?

If I am to develop assuming that the player does not want to think, I definitely will not take interest in what the player wants.

To say that RPG players are not the bit interested in having to actually think is essentially ignoring those that actually do wish to challenge themselves mentally. It is an insult to those that don't identify themselves with the supposed majority.

Almost entirely irrelevant, its clear very few users here have commercial aspirations. These guys care about 'driving people away' because that should be a very real concern for every developer.

Yes, cause obviously, RPG players don't look for puzzles.

[Kaust]

Wrong, you dont sound like you take the slightest bit of interest in what the player wants. I mean, I like RM because I like RM, but wtf is the point if no-one but me wants to play what I made?

If I am to develop assuming that the player does not want to think, I definitely will not take interest in what the player wants.

To say that RPG players are not the bit interested in having to actually think is essentially ignoring those that actually do wish to challenge themselves mentally. It is an insult to those that don't identify themselves with the supposed majority.

Almost entirely irrelevant, its clear very few users here have commercial aspirations. These guys care about 'driving people away' because that should be a very real concern for every developer.

Yes, cause obviously, RPG players don't look for puzzles.

And it is absolute arrogance to name yourself the voice of the silent minority, even more so for a minority of brilliance. Let me guess, these incredibly intelligent folks dont know the words to speak for themselves? Or perhaps you're so brilliant that you simply understand them better than themselves?

Btw, the next time you're struggling to pick a point or two to make some barely coherent argument, just drop it. I said there was not only room for but a place for puzzles in rpgs...who exactly are you arguing with?

[Shaddow]

But to be a little more contributory (wouldn't want to play hypocrite), yes puzzles do belong in RPGs for a number of reasons; their fun, they break the monotony of dungeon>town>dungeon, and they can provide a challenge. But in regards to this link between roleplaying games and real life:
1)ALL games require some degree of roleplaying. You are always puttting yourself in another's shoes.
2)I have never had to complete a floor puzzle to get through a door irl. Ever.

1) I'm so glad someone has said that, not only is it very true, but the standard rpg genre exist and is constantly being mixed with every other genre these days, and a majority of the time it's a major improvement on the genre or game in particular. A prime example that fits into this particular thread is Puzzle Quest: Challenge of the Warlords.....though that is the extreme of what this topic is about.

2) You've obviously never been to my house...

[Tsukihime]

And it is absolute arrogance to name yourself the voice of the silent minority, even more so for a minority of brilliance. Let me guess, these incredibly intelligent folks dont know the words to speak for themselves? Or perhaps you're so brilliant that you simply understand them better than themselves?

I'm not the one telling everyone what RPG players like or dislike.
But I guess you're too concerned with keeping the peace around here to actually read.