Quick question involving Max HP and MP, ^ That right there in the title is what the topic is about. Options

[zolaga]

I was just wondering what you guys would think about an unchanging maximum HP and MP when a character levels up. For example, At level 1 the characters HP is 100 and MP is 50. When they level up their stats (ATK, DEF, SPI, AGI) will go up but their HP and MP remain the same. The only way to increase HP and MP would be the purchase items. Is this a good idea, or not?

[Knot]

While I am sceptical as to whether it would work, it really depends on what mechanics you're going to use with it. How often can people buy these health upgrades? What do you want to get out of this? Why do it in the first place?
Hp is usually the biggest way the player seens their characters progressing. The further in the game you get the more damage enemies do to you and the more Hp they take off. If you plan on compensating Def for Hp then the damage levels towards you would just stay the same and it would get pretty boring. If your plan is actually for the player to buy enough Hp upgrades as to see a noticeable difference then my big question would be why do you want to do this in the first place? How is it going to change the standard gameplay enough to warrant such a feature?

So I'd think about what result you're going for and maybe mention that here!

[Titanhex]

Knot raises a good point of course.

The problem with your idea is that it will be difficult to balance. You are giving up a lot of control over these two stats by doing that, and leaving it to the player. You thus have to control the stats in your own way, somewhere within the design of your game.

You know this isn't that big of a stretch from just making gear give HP and MP values. The player buys them. It's just less permanent.

It's not a good or bad idea, it's really just another way of designing your gameplay. It's unorthodox, which many will see as refreshing, but it's also not going to be simple to balance, requiring some trial and error. Personally I wouldn't invest time into something that could be so hit or miss.

[zolaga]

Good points and suggestions everywhere. This is why I asked here before doing anything. I mostly just wanted things to be different then every other game and give more control to the players. The game is built around choices. Skill trees, relationships, side quests, etc. I was just wondering if giving the control over there stats would be giving the players too much choice? The items that would increase health could be found in dungeons, shops, be rewards for side quests, monster drops and the like. I can definitely see the flaws in it though and I would have to do a lot of test runs to make sure it doesn't make the game too hard or too easy.

[amerk]

I recommend to go all or nothing in that if you want people to buy upgrades (as in Dragon Fantasy Venaitura) then do it for all (HP, MP, Def, Str, etc), but at a reasonable cost so that players can purchase upgrades as smoothly as they would have if they leveled up, but not so easily that they can spam and buy upgrade after upgrade with little or no effort.

To do this, you'd need to properly balance your enemies and the kind of item/gold drops they give. Basically it turns level grinding into gold grinding, but the player is given the option in how they wish their characters to develop.

[zolaga]

I recommend to go all or nothing in that if you want people to buy upgrades (as in Dragon Fantasy Venaitura) then do it for all (HP, MP, Def, Str, etc), but at a reasonable cost so that players can purchase upgrades as smoothly as they would have if they leveled up, but not so easily that they can spam and buy upgrade after upgrade with little or no effort.

To do this, you'd need to properly balance your enemies and the kind of item/gold drops they give. Basically it turns level grinding into gold grinding, but the player is given the option in how they wish their characters to develop.

But then XP and levels are pointless.

[elliott20]

having HP and MP stay the same actually CAN be interesting. What this means is that your character can never take more punishment nor can they can cast more magic than what is already in them. But they can learn to do more stuff with it. And that is TOTALLY fine by me.

What this does do, however, is make combat far more dangerous, since if your character is going to be fighting foes who are becoming just as good at killing stuff as you are. I mean, if your HP is at 100 the whole time, and the enemies continue to do more damage over time, that means by the later stage, every enemy will be able to score a one-hit kill.

Things like defense and evasion scores are now a LOT more useful. In fact, barring just having a super offense yourself, it is one of the only ways left to avoid damage and by that extension, death.

In games like GURPS, this is how things work. Players don't learn to take more hits, they learn to defend against more and more extreme forms of attacks. In a lot of old school platform games, that is exactly what happens to the player. Mario doesn't learn to take more hits from Bowser in Super Mario, the player must simply learn how to deal with Bowser's attacks.

Imagine if the characters can learn these things somehow.

[zolaga]

having HP and MP stay the same actually CAN be interesting. What this means is that your character can never take more punishment nor can they can cast more magic than what is already in them. But they can learn to do more stuff with it. And that is TOTALLY fine by me.

What this does do, however, is make combat far more dangerous, since if your character is going to be fighting foes who are becoming just as good at killing stuff as you are. I mean, if your HP is at 100 the whole time, and the enemies continue to do more damage over time, that means by the later stage, every enemy will be able to score a one-hit kill.

Things like defense and evasion scores are now a LOT more useful. In fact, barring just having a super offense yourself, it is one of the only ways left to avoid damage and by that extension, death.

In games like GURPS, this is how things work. Players don't learn to take more hits, they learn to defend against more and more extreme forms of attacks. In a lot of old school platform games, that is exactly what happens to the player. Mario doesn't learn to take more hits from Bowser in Super Mario, the player must simply learn how to deal with Bowser's attacks.

Imagine if the characters can learn these things somehow.

Maybe I can try a best of both worlds and increase the Max HP and MP every 10 levels?

[elliott20]

you can, but depending upon how much and how the rest of your game world works out, you'll end up in one situation or the other anyway. The point is, if you're going to curb hp growth, you need to look into how a character can avoid damage. if you're going to curb mp, you need to look into how the players can recover mp or not use it as much.

don't half-ass both though, or else you'll in a situation where your curbed HP/MP really makes very little difference but you've also built in all these easy ways to recoup resources, which can take away a lot of the challenge.

[zolaga]

you can, but depending upon how much and how the rest of your game world works out, you'll end up in one situation or the other anyway. The point is, if you're going to curb hp growth, you need to look into how a character can avoid damage. if you're going to curb mp, you need to look into how the players can recover mp or not use it as much.

don't half-ass both though, or else you'll in a situation where your curbed HP/MP really makes very little difference but you've also built in all these easy ways to recoup resources, which can take away a lot of the challenge.

True, true... this is a hard decision. I don't want to choose something and end up having to change it down the road. XD

[24ctPenguin]

It is a tricky one as others have already pointed out. I was planning on using a system similar to this in a recent project whereby you gain no Stat increases whatsoever upon levelling up, and instead learn new skills on preset levels. Your stats such as STR, DEF, INT etc would be upgraded [in small amounts] by consumable items and your maximum HP and MP would be dependant on your characters Armour, with some offering better PDEF boosts than HP and vice versa. Same for MP.

A system like that would allow players a lot of freedom if you take the time to create many different types of armour and make them available easily. The stat increase items would also be readily available as enemy drops and/or for sale at reasonable prices. Of course you could make both rare instead, which would result in a game that offers a challenge dependant on the players willingness to scout out new armours and items. It would be possible to complete without too much scavenging, but your characters would have a tough time in battle, obviously.

Just my thoughts anyway.

[amerk]

I recommend to go all or nothing in that if you want people to buy upgrades (as in Dragon Fantasy Venaitura) then do it for all (HP, MP, Def, Str, etc), but at a reasonable cost so that players can purchase upgrades as smoothly as they would have if they leveled up, but not so easily that they can spam and buy upgrade after upgrade with little or no effort.

To do this, you'd need to properly balance your enemies and the kind of item/gold drops they give. Basically it turns level grinding into gold grinding, but the player is given the option in how they wish their characters to develop.

But then XP and levels are pointless.

Correct, you'd essentially keep everybody at level 1 and enemies would not drop XP. They'd only drop gold, items, or items that can be sold for gold, which can then be used to buy upgrades.

[bulmabriefs144]

I was just wondering what you guys would think about an unchanging maximum HP and MP when a character levels up. For example, At level 1 the characters HP is 100 and MP is 50. When they level up their stats (ATK, DEF, SPI, AGI) will go up but their HP and MP remain the same. The only way to increase HP and MP would be the purchase items. Is this a good idea, or not?

If you said earn (as in through semi-rare drops), I'd agree with you. Otherwise, it would be all too easy to just go on a shopping spree. That said, some of my game's stores do sell it.

My game has a dual system (I made my game basically trying to copy whatever rpg gaming idea popped into my head, so it's an odd mess). One character is stuck at like level ten, and has to either buy stat seeds or level by using skills, attacking alot, etc. The rest have levels.

[zolaga]

I was just wondering what you guys would think about an unchanging maximum HP and MP when a character levels up. For example, At level 1 the characters HP is 100 and MP is 50. When they level up their stats (ATK, DEF, SPI, AGI) will go up but their HP and MP remain the same. The only way to increase HP and MP would be the purchase items. Is this a good idea, or not?

If you said earn (as in through semi-rare drops), I'd agree with you. Otherwise, it would be all too easy to just go on a shopping spree. That said, some of my game's stores do sell it.

My game has a dual system (I made my game basically trying to copy whatever rpg gaming idea popped into my head, so it's an odd mess). One character is stuck at like level ten, and has to either buy stat seeds or level by using skills, attacking alot, etc. The rest have levels.

Well you can earn them too, like in sidequests and the like. It isn't going to be easy to buy them. They are going to be reasonably priced.

[bulmabriefs144]

Hey, I thought of something. Rather than gold price for stat increases, you could also make a variable based on character experience (better average it for whole party, or you'll have a headache), then have a shop where this experience is used to buy stat seeds. When you have equal or greater exp, decrease exp by that amount.

I dunno the mechanics of this, whether it would level you down, but it would be interesting to try.