Magic, I need some advice Options

[Zaphod]

I have a rather large list of spells for two magic-casting characters, and here is the situation:

Since 2K3 doesn't have the ability to make a spell target one or all creatures at the player's option, you have to create two spells. For example, Fire targets one enemy, while Flame targets them all.

Now, the problem with this is that it practically doubles the size of the spell list for both healing-type and offensive-type magic. To allow characters to gain all of these spells, it requires earning new spells every three or four levels. That's a bit too many at the higher levels, especially if I want them to have their full spell arsenal by level 60 or so.

I see two ways of going about this--I can either say "Belgium with it" and let them gain the spells by leveling up, OR I can do it this way--the spells they learn by leveling up will only target one enemy, but they can find and/or purchase special skill scrolls which will teach them the spells that target all enemies. A third option would be the make the three levels of elemental spells that target one enemy, and then just one spell of that type that targets them all. For example, Fire1, Fire2, and Fire3 will each target one, but then there is the spell Flame which targets them all, and there is only one level of Flame.

So my question is--which is the recommended way to go about this?

[Zinx10]

Easy, let the skill be a switch-type, then when they activate it, make a common event, allowing the person to choose whether to attack one or all.

[Zaphod]

Easy, let the skill be a switch-type, then when they activate it, make a common event, allowing the person to choose whether to attack one or all.

I did think of trying that, but when I realized I would have to make switches for every spell in my rather large spell list, I decided it wasn't worth the effort. I can deal with the separate spells. It's just a matter of which WAY to deal with it.

[amerk]

Ick, I don't use 2K3 but it seems odd that you cannot dictate upfront when designing a spell how many it will effect (1 or all).

So if I'm understanding correctly, the first spell created can only hit 1. Each spell built upon that will then allow you to elect whether it effects 1 or all, correct?

If so, why not build one dummy spell that the player never gets, and then design all your real spells off that one in the way that you want?

You should also be able to dictate what spells a person will get at any given level, so maybe through the initial levels they get cheap spells quickly, but then later on they get decent spells sparsely.

[Oceans Dream]

Ick, I don't use 2K3 but it seems odd that you cannot dictate upfront when designing a spell how many it will effect (1 or all).

So if I'm understanding correctly, the first spell created can only hit 1. Each spell built upon that will then allow you to elect whether it effects 1 or all, correct?

If so, why not build one dummy spell that the player never gets, and then design all your real spells off that one in the way that you want?

You should also be able to dictate what spells a person will get at any given level, so maybe through the initial levels they get cheap spells quickly, but then later on they get decent spells sparsely.

RPG Maker 2003 only has an option for a single target spell or a multi target spell. It doesn't have the Final Fantasy style of having the player choose if it's single/multi in battle.

I'd probably suggest seeing if you could trim up the spell list a little (You might ask why, but honestly some spells can be redundant and you don't really want to pad out a list just for the sake of it) and then go by some single targets and a multi target. Maybe you'll want to upgrade a spell rather than having it add to your characters spell list. Like for example, changing Fire1 to Fire2 when they upgrade it. Barely anyone, unless you have a good strategic reason to do so (Fire1 has an additional effect that Fire2 does not) will use an inferior spell even if it costs less MP.

So you can have Fire Lv1, Fire Lv2, upgraded to Fire Lv3, Flame Lv1, Flame Lv2, Flame Lv3, and all the players will see is 2 spells in their list at each time because it overwrites rather than adds to the list.

[Zaphod]

@amerk: It doesn't quite work that way. I was referring to the way I design the spells. I design three levels of a certain spells, such as fire, and make them of varying strengths, and that is why I was referring to three, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that point.

But 2K3 (and XP and and I think VX also) allows the programmer to decide, when creating the spell, whether it affects one or multiple targets. But it can't set up a spell that will allow the player to choose. That's why, for example, where I would mostly have three fire-based spells, I have six--three that affect one target, three more than affect multiple targets.

I am thinking of remaking the spell list completely. Instead of going with Final Fantasy-type spells, I might use a more "Dungeons & Dragons" approach. That way, the spell in question will be tailor-made to hit one or multiple targets depending on the spell. For example, Burning Hands would hit only one target, but Chain Lightning would hit them all. I would then allow some spells to be gained by leveling up, but others must be learned from scrolls that the player must find or purchase. It would mean rewriting the spell list completely, but it would make more sense. Although I would have to make scrolls in the item list for each spell, it might be worth the effort. Of course, not all D&D type spells would translate well to a console-style RPG, but I can pick the ones that will. They may work a little differently, though.

@Ocean: There are two reasons to keep the old spells that cost less MP: first, if you're fighting an enemy that is weak against s certain type of spell (for example, water-type monsters are weak against lightning), you might use a lower-level Bolt spell that will still do enough damage without using up as much MP as you would casting Thundaga. Secondly, and this has happened to me often, you might be too low on MP to cast Thundaga, but you still have enough for the level 1 Bolt. I do like your idea; however, I don't know how 2K3 would overwrite the older spells, as you suggest.

Anyway, that gives me five options:
-- keep spells as they are, gain all spells by leveling up
-- keep spells as they are, find/purchase skills scrolls for multiple-target spells
-- make three levels of single-target and one level of multiple-target
-- use a D&D-based spell list
-- overwrite older spells with higher-level spells (not sure how to do this)

So, any advice on which of the above would go over best?


This post has been edited by Zaphod: Sep 28 2011, 09:13 AM

[Oceans Dream]

It doesn't need to be a D&D based spell list, but something along those lines might be better. A smaller spell list is fine actually. Have some spells be upgraded so the player doesn't have redundant spells, have some with different uses (Fire Burn spell might cause some small fire damage and damage over time, while Fire Break might do higher fire damage and a 1 turn defense break). I don't know what way would work best but you may want to consider the types of players. Some like grinding, some really don't, and you're cutting off their tactical options if you have them all by level up because then they can't rely on their wit and more on running around in circles.

But yeah, I think it would be more work for you but I think you have some ideas that you just need expanding on and planning out. And make sure each spell has a use, a 30% chance for poison with no other effect is useless to the player for example.

[Zaphod]

But yeah, I think it would be more work for you but I think you have some ideas that you just need expanding on and planning out. And make sure each spell has a use, a 30% chance for poison with no other effect is useless to the player for example.

I wouldn't make a spell like that--my current Poison spell does initial damage when cast unless the monster is immune, then has a 40% chance of the poison wearing off every turn.

The magic system would still work the same (using up MP to cast spells) if I use the D&D-based list. Mostly what would chance is the name of the spells, to make them less boring and redundant, and also the way they learn some of the spells. As I said, they would gain some spells by leveling, but they can gain the higher-level spells whenever they have the money to purchase it. They won't be cheap, but currency in my game can be easily gained if you know where to look

I'm thinking the tactical advantages for players does involve using your wit to decide how to use the options available to you: lower-level spells, for example, can be effective is used properly. You wouldn't, for example, cast Firaga on Flame Drake, but if your Gaia Knight (my own class) doesn't have the Aqua spell, then have your Crimson Guard (also my own class) use one of her Sword Skill moves to cause more damage. Not all enemies need to be defeated by magic, obviously

Thanks for the advice, though. I've narrowed it down to two options--either the three single-target and one multi-target method, or the D&D method.

[knuckles1020]

If you want to make it so the spells lvl up. you can make a common event that contains a variable for the number of times you need to use the spell in order for it to lvl up and then turns on a switch. Now, use a second common event to switch the two skills in and out of that characters skill list. with this method you could compress your large spell list to only a few spells.

[Zaphod]

If you want to make it so the spells lvl up. you can make a common event that contains a variable for the number of times you need to use the spell in order for it to lvl up and then turns on a switch. Now, use a second common event to switch the two skills in and out of that characters skill list. with this method you could compress your large spell list to only a few spells.

That's another possibility I might look into. Right now I am working on writing down the specifics of my Sword skills in case my revised spell list goes too long, I don't want to overwrite them, since they are specific to the main character.

I think going with the three-plus-one method would be best, so here is the way I intend to pull it off. When the mage learns all three of a single-target element spell (I'll say Fire for this example), he can then go visit a wizard's house (there will be one in most towns). If he has learned the third Fire spell (checked by a Conditional Branch), the wizard will offer to teach him the "ultimate" fire spell (for a price). It will be slightly stronger than the third Fire spell, and will hit all targets. The same will be done for other elements as well--Ice, Thunder, and Dark. There are healer-type spells, too, such as Cure, which will use the same method, but this character will visit a town's temple to learn the multi-target versions of these spells. As for the Gaia Knight (monk-type character), who uses Earth, Water, and Wind elements, will learn the multi-target spells from his master (who can only be found in the Gaia Knight's town).

I have given the spells different names to make them less boring. Instead of calling the spells something like Fire 1, Fire 2, and Fire 3, or Fire, Fira, and Firaga, I call them Fire Blast, Fire Arrow, and Fire Stream (going by their animations), and the multi-target version will be Fire Storm. The same kind of thing for all the others as well.

Thanks for all the advice!

[GalzaRPG]

Don't know if you still need advise on this or not, but I'm throwing my two cents in anyway..

Kind of had a simular issue really, and my way around it was have a skill act as a switch.. say... I dunno, "Field skill".. which basically swaps out all the magic with single targets that you want to hit all targets. Your spell list will only appear to be smaller, even though it's not. There are a few down sides.. the user would need to burn a turn before they can cast.. unless you use enable combo. Not too sure how you want characters to learn spells, or how many you intend on having, but I know super long events in 2k3 have a tendency to bring the system to a crawl. Just something to keep in mind

[Zaphod]

Thanks, but I've pretty much figured this out. The only thing I'm thinking about now is if there should be a level requirement the character needs to meet before learning the final spell. Kind of like in the original Final Fantasy where you could only buy a spell if your magic level was high enough. Since there is no "magic level" statistic it would likely be either Intelligence or just even XP level.