The new ways ppl are making games, Better but worse Options

[Lato]

Ok ive been kinda hot and cold on the idea of RPG maker ACE, I like making rpgs and all, all the little things from story writing to spriting/pixel all just a bit of everything. The problem I see is that this new engine is cutting out a big part of the creative process. Ace comes with not only a face maker and sprite maker but also even a map sample maker??

Now I have mixed feeling about all this, on the one hand I think its a cool aid, on the other it just ruined the creative process, at the end of the day I think it puts alot of sprites/pixel artists out of work, which actually makes me very happy cause most of them piss me off and I can never find one when I need one so its karma. But I see this as the start, I dont think I will like where this continues to go, I mean whats next, story generators in games?

I like the old school rpg maker style but I dont have a crystal ball to see where things are gonna go now so I though id bring it up here.

[Tsukihime]

It is an option that is available for developers to use. Just like how in programming, there are plenty of libraries available to use, which one can argue sucks away from the joy of re-inventing the wheel thousands of times.

But these are the things that are cutting down development time significantly.
For me, it doesn't matter where or how people get their stuff. I don't expect everyone to be re-writing a custom battle system everytime they want to make a new game, nor would I expect them to draw a new set of sprites.

If sprites and faces are low-priority, there should be no need for someone to have to make their own sprites and faces.
Same with maps. Or stories for that matter.

[thatbennyguy]

In the end, you will see what amount of effort went into the game. Just like the dungeon generator for VX; if people just use that willy-nilly, people are going to notice, just as if you used the default RTP in a non-inspiring fashion. These are all just tools to make it easier to create better games with the RPG Maker, and we may be able to start creating more commercial games.

The character generator can only generate certain types of sprites, so you know if a sprite is custom-made. Especially if the graphical tileset is a complete overhaul (I love it when people create a whole new custom tileset for their game, in a different style to the usual). But just because there's a sprite generator, and some map samples (which only display one style of mapping, by the way), doesn't mean this stifles creativity. Story generators are available on the web, but none of them have the depth and meaning of an original story. None of these generators can generate creativity, only data based on formulas and randomization.

So don't you worry, there's plenty of room for creativity, these things are just tools to use. Master the tools, or let the tools master you.

[Kaust]

This seems a little elitist. When EB! included these elements it was likely to encourage newer, younger developers rather than cater to older. I mean, while one in a hundred may complain about the products becoming easier overtime, many more would complain about them getting harder. And its not like they force you to use the new methods by removing the old, you can still make and include your own sprites if you choose.
Besides, no doubt eventually people will be able to recognise generated sprites/faceart, and it'll be treated with the same stigma as including the rtp.

[Lato]

Well you guys are right, the new crowd is making more games now which is good, I try to keep a open mind when I see these I really do, but when Ace has just come out and ppl have game demos out already ehhh, they just look the same to me. Now that being said I have seen a FEW that are actually really cool from some new ppl which is just awesome. But like I said im just torn on the issue.

Another side of this is, doesnt this kill the team sprit when it comes to making games in our community?? I mean I dont think it has ever been very strong but with all these new tools the one thing you dont need as much for sure is a team...

[Shablo5]

The way I see it is like this.

You have the Anti-RTP, and the RTP"Okay" crowd. One hates it, one is okay with it / indifferent. You rarely have someone who just loves RTP. So, putting in map samples for people to use, and a faceset/sprite generator just means more RTP content. Will this kill the quality of games? I don't think so. It'll just make those games who purely use RTP even more noticeable. After a year or so into Ace's release, we'll know EXACTLY what the RTP Generator looks like in terms of just looking at a faceset. At this point you can either like it, or shun it. Most choose to shun.

Now, these people will also post their progress in development threads or screenshot threads. Here they will be critiqued by the former group about how their style is 'Basic' and 'Average' and their spaces are open, etc etc. How they need to 'try something new'. This will cause them to learn something new, or lurk and rip off others work (Which imo, is still better than RTP and even I take tiles from others (With Credit)).

So. Them adding more things to make people get into making games faster isn't a negative thing. If anything, you'll have more completed games. If they're not good, nobody will play them, then the developer must either take a new approach if he wants some appeal, or quit altogether. Regardless, it's kind of a Win-Win. I like telling people how they could improve their maps.

Now we're forgetting one thing. Hobbyists and first timers will use these tools extensively, and rightfully so. I don't think anyone should be thrown into the deep end right off the bat. It's important for most people's first project to be a simple one, and these tools provide the means to do just that. Same with those few tutorials out there for "Your First VX / ACE" game. They're there to bring people in, not give them the resources to produce quality commercial games.
Let's be honest. This engine isn't a commercial engine. It's a hobbyists paradise. And giving hobbyists the tools to enjoy themselves and maybe even get their first steps into game design, from a very early standpoint, is fantastic. And if they really enjoy doing the basic RTP games, maybe they'll step out of their comfort zone and try something new. But the fact they aren't forced to do anything (Find extra resources, find a team, etc) is a good thing from a developers point of view (Enterbrain's). More people = richer community. More noobs to ask questions = More people to become helpful = everyone learns out of it.

That's my opinion. I don't feel it has a negative impact on our community.

This post has been edited by Shablo5: Jun 6 2012, 05:21 AM

[Tsukihime]

Another side of this is, doesnt this kill the team sprit when it comes to making games in our community?? I mean I dont think it has ever been very strong but with all these new tools the one thing you dont need as much for sure is a team...

Sure, if pre-made graphics and maps suit their needs.

[Lato]

Im just really torn on the issue, usually I know right off the bat how I feel about change, but like I said A part of me has this evil laughter for those douchbags that need this kick in the balls so I love that but the other side I worry about the art, I guess if you really wanna get back at ppl you hate you have to sacrifice a bit lol

[LostSamurai]

It really depends on the seriousness of the individual RPG Maker. When I started RPG Making, I was 12 years old. My friend Eric showed me RPG Maker 2000 and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. An RPG that I could make myself! BUT I LOVE RPGS! I CAN REALLY MAKE THEM MYSELF NOW? And I could customize everything, make my own skills, characters, story, and everything! It was so exciting! I loved the fact that I could make games, however crappy they were. If someone was to come up to 12, 13 year old me and say "Your game is stupid. Nobody is ever going to play your game because you are using the graphics that the game maker provided. Real game makers make their own graphics." I probably would have cried. I didn't care about the graphics that I used, I just wanted to make MY OWN game.

Imagine if a bully came over and kicked down the sandcastle that a little kid spent three hours making because he used "public beach sand" to make it. "Real sandcastles are made with custom sand-art sand." Where does he get the right to do or say that? The child didn't make it for the bully to like it. He made the sand castle because he wanted to build something for the fun of it and the joy of creating something out of nothing. In the same regard, I didn't make my games for other people to play them. I made my games because I love making games.

I realized my games weren't very high quality. But they were the coolest games ever because I made them. The storyline and dialogue were in my head anyway, I didn't need to transfer it to the game. And my friends that I got to play the game, I stood over their shoulder and told them where to go anyway. The game didn't need to tell them. The only redeeming factor about my first games were that I made them myself.

As I got older, I found my first RPG Making forum on the internet, I don't even remember the name of it. Suddenly the fact that my games could be shared on the internet became a reality. And I learned things about game design and plot development etc. I realized that some people playing my game weren't going to have me over their shoulder telling them what to do. And that wasn't how a game was supposed to be played anyway. But still, it took years for me to get from that realization to actually making legitimate stories that made sense. I have been making RPGs for 11 years now. Now, I don't only make my games for my own enjoyment. It is still the primary reason I make games, but now I also think about the 12-15 people who play my games. I want them to enjoy it. I think about how their experience playing the game is different from mine, since I know everything about the game going in and they know nothing, and I try to make it so the game can be enjoyed fully from an outsider's perspective And having another person enjoy my game is now the most rewarding thing about RPG making to me. But it took me that long to get to where I am now. It is a long learning process that I am still growing from. But I wouldn't tell other people right away that it takes years to make a successful game, if they just wanted to mess around with an RPG Maker program. I would give them advice, and tell them how to make their games more functional and more appealing, but I wouldn't tell people that their game isn't worth it because I don't know for what reason they are making it. Everybody uses this program for their own reasons, and I don't want to ruin their fun, just like I wouldn't want to ruin the sandcastles even if all the little kids on the beach started using using artificial easy-stick sand provided for them by the beach's sandcastle committee.

And anyway, we're all using an RPG maker program here. If you want to get techincal on how a game "should be made," a game "should" be programmed entirely from scratch, which usually means a large team of developers. RPG Maker allows an individual to bypass the years of training and education and large amount of manpower required to actually make a game.

This post has been edited by LostSamurai: Jun 6 2012, 08:32 PM

[Lato]

It really depends on the seriousness of the individual RPG Maker. When I started RPG Making, I was 12 years old. My friend Eric showed me RPG Maker 2000 and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. An RPG that I could make myself! BUT I LOVE RPGS! I CAN REALLY MAKE THEM MYSELF NOW? And I could customize everything, make my own skills, characters, story, and everything! It was so exciting! I loved the fact that I could make games, however crappy they were. If someone was to come up to 12, 13 year old me and say "Your game is stupid. Nobody is ever going to play your game because you are using the graphics that the game maker provided. Real game makers make their own graphics." I probably would have cried. I didn't care about the graphics that I used, I just wanted to make MY OWN game.

Imagine if a bully came over and kicked down the sandcastle that a little kid spent three hours making because he used "public beach sand" to make it. "Real sandcastles are made with custom sand-art sand." Where does he get the right to do or say that? The child didn't make it for the bully to like it. He made the sand castle because he wanted to build something for the fun of it and the joy of creating something out of nothing. In the same regard, I didn't make my games for other people to play them. I made my games because I love making games.

I realized my games weren't very high quality. But they were the coolest games ever because I made them. The storyline and dialogue were in my head anyway, I didn't need to transfer it to the game. And my friends that I got to play the game, I stood over their shoulder and told them where to go anyway. The game didn't need to tell them. The only redeeming factor about my first games were that I made them myself.

As I got older, I found my first RPG Making forum on the internet, I don't even remember the name of it. Suddenly the fact that my games could be shared on the internet became a reality. And I learned things about game design and plot development etc. I realized that some people playing my game weren't going to have me over their shoulder telling them what to do. And that wasn't how a game was supposed to be played anyway. But still, it took years for me to get from that realization to actually making legitimate stories that made sense. I have been making RPGs for 11 years now. Now, I don't only make my games for my own enjoyment. It is still the primary reason I make games, but now I also think about the 12-15 people who play my games. I want them to enjoy it. I think about how their experience playing the game is different from mine, since I know everything about the game going in and they know nothing, and I try to make it so the game can be enjoyed fully from an outsider's perspective And having another person enjoy my game is now the most rewarding thing about RPG making to me. But it took me that long to get to where I am now. It is a long learning process that I am still growing from. But I wouldn't tell other people right away that it takes years to make a successful game, if they just wanted to mess around with an RPG Maker program. I would give them advice, and tell them how to make their games more functional and more appealing, but I wouldn't tell people that their game isn't worth it because I don't know for what reason they are making it. Everybody uses this program for their own reasons, and I don't want to ruin their fun, just like I wouldn't want to ruin the sandcastles even if all the little kids on the beach started using using artificial easy-stick sand provided for them by the beach's sandcastle committee.

And anyway, we're all using an RPG maker program here. If you want to get techincal on how a game "should be made," a game "should" be programmed entirely from scratch, which usually means a large team of developers. RPG Maker allows an individual to bypass the years of training and education and large amount of manpower required to actually make a game.

You can write like 4 paragraphs but not pm me back?? lol ANYWAYS. There are always gonna be bullying in the world but I never think of that and RPG making in the same sec, I have mixed feeling on the issue so I find it helpful to hear what other ppl have to say, I try and keep a open mind and not get angry, TRY not to lol.

[LostSamurai]

I started writing this hours ago, but then I had to go to work before I posted it. When I got back to my computer I finished posting this before I ever noticed that I had a PM from you. As soon as I noticed, I responded to you.

[shinyjiggly]

The way I see it, the RTP is a starting point for beginners - a life raft in the middle of an ocean full of possibility.
It is up to the person working on the game to decide which direction they will take. Many of them stick with the RTP, some find alternate types of sprites, some hire professionals, and some even try to make the sprites themselves. This option of being able to easily make somewhat custom RTP style charsets simply offers them an easy option.
While being legit will lend it to attracting most of the users, that does not discount the other options out there, including doing personal RTP edits. While a customizer system can offer many different combos, there are some things that just might not be there, like a dress made out of fire, that the user might want to have one of their characters to have.
But with the perk of being easy to-use and thus attracting many of the users to utilize it, there is an added risk of visual stagnation that may be noticed by those who actually play those types of games.
While I can't just urge everyone to go out and learn how to sprite amazingly well due to their varying interest amounts, possible self-esteem issues, lack of free time to spend of the act of working on them, and other such excuses, I would still prefer if at least SOME sort of personal touches were to be done with the graphics of whatever game is in question, even if it's just a small inclusion of an accessory present on the main character.

So, I guess I could say that I'm somewhat indifferent to its use by first-timers, but I would prefer if the users of VX Ace branched out and experimented with other methods after they've gotten their feet wet.

[bulmabriefs144]

Probably better to have imported XP charsets. The tilesets are fine though, except for the fact that there are no modern ones (well, there are, VX Ace sent me an email that said for "only" 6.99 I could have a bunch of tilesets, this after already spending $60+ on the engine itself). I like customs better anyway, and even the modded RTPs for XP are better than the munchkin looking VX ones. But yea, if you're gonna use VX sprites it should:

1. Be a quality story that so motivates the player within the first five minutes that they can get past this.

or

2. Be a parody.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Jun 25 2012, 11:41 AM

[Ratty524]

First and foremost, the reason RPG Maker exists in the first place is so people can focus on the "fun" aspects of creating a game (level design, graphics, etc.) without having to take extensive classes to learn how to code. It has a face-maker, a dungeon generator, and a sample map maker... So what? That's how the program is supposed to be, and I see it as only making the engine more user-friendly compared to the previous RPG makers.

Also, I disagree with your statement that it ruins the creative process. Sure, the fact that VXAce provides almost everything you need to get started seems a bit cheap, but that's ALL the maker will do: Get you started. It's what you do with your game that counts, not what maps you make or the graphics you choose to use. It's the developer themselves that determines whether the game they make is fun, not the visuals. There is much room for creativity as far as how you want your game to progress and even how to play your game to begin with, so I don't think it ruins the creative process at all, so much as the engine adds less steps to the process.

Take a game like "Maximus Jones" for example. I don't think the creator used any graphics outside of the default, the mapping was forgettable, and the "custom" graphics I saw where from the ugly face-generator, but as a game it was very fun to play. It was puzzle-based and all of the mini-games were very well-made and unique. I'd rather play that then a game that tries to go "all custom" and fails at being a good game.

[m4uesviecr]

I wouldn't take it personally. Being a composer, I could compare that to seeing all of these music packs that are distributed:

"Well if all of these developers have pre-made packs of music, what good am I?"

Plenty good.

Like it has been stated multiple times, these resources are for developers who plan to make gaming a hobby, or for others who don't have the monetary assets to pay other people. Though the custom facesets are nice (I can't say the same for the music), it doesn't deter the fact that no matter how much people mix and match, they aren't "original". It is prepackaged, and there are always going to be people who want something new and authentic to be used in their games. And those very people will, in turn, seek help from professional artists. Also, for those who are looking to truly make their way into game design, they won't be focusing on rpg maker to broaden their horizons for too long.

[samer95]

me personally I think it's really great. most ppl just want to get their ideas into action rather than making a commercial success, so it eliminates a lot of inconveniences and saves times .