Official English version of RPG Maker 2003?!, Dejica considers... Options

[Kayan]

Petition for Signatures
Official Topic

This suggestion was thrown into the table and so we have to ask, if we were to release RPG Maker 2003 in English would you buy it?
Vote and post your suggestions here~

Just a note, take the EULA into consideration. This means you guys shouldn't use patches/plug-ins/external programs if you want to use RPG Maker.

Well, what can I say? There's a possibilty that Degica/EB! will look into creating an official English version of RM2K3 if there's enough demand for it. What do you all think? Should we embrace this momentous occasion that would allow us to use 2K3 legally? Would you pay for such a thing? Let your voices be heard!

And sign the damn petition! <3

Also, please spread the word around to any and all sites you frequent where people use the program. The more people made aware, the better!

(Wasn't sure where to put this, so hope here's okay. ^.^; )

Also, if you're wondering why you should bother...

Why wouldn't you? It helps EB! and Degica to be inspired to make more of an effort to listen to the fans.
You no longer have to live in shame knowing you've got a pirated copy.
You will legally own it.
It also makes a neat collection item for nostalgia's sake.
You can legally sell a 2k3 game.
You will gain legal usage of the RTP that came with it so that if you want to use it in other RM engines, you can.
You'll be supporting the people who support your hobby - it's almost like you'll be supporting your hobby yourself.
You will no longer be one of the dregs of society who pulls down the rest of your hobby-kin.

Are those enough reasons? Or would you like more?


This really is a big deal, though. How many other companies would take a fan's suggestion and run with it when it comes to an older program? Wanna be part of RM history? Vote yes~


FAQ
Why now? Why not 10 years ago?
The simple answer? Because no one bothered asking for it.
The complete answer? Degica only took over the publishing of EB! products at the advent of XP. Up until that time Protexus was the publisher and they weren't really concerned with the English community. When Degica took over, they reached out to the Western community. It's thanks to them that we have any English makers at all. They also hadn't thought that it would be appreciated, so until a fan actually asked about it...
When they were asked they said, sure, let's see how much demand there is and if there's enough we'll do that.

Is it worth it for them to do this? Aren't they just wasting money that could be better spent on other things?
To quote Touchfuzzy, Admin of the official RM site:

I'm going to use variables because I have no idea exact costs. Let's say we have Project 1 and Project 2.

Project 1 costs x to produce, and brings in 10x

Project 2 costs 2x to produce, and brings in 10x

If we do just Project 1 we make 9x, if we do just Project 2 we make 8x. If we did BOTH projects, we could make 17x.

Hence why if something sounds like we will make x's we will find the money to do it. Also, translating 2k3 if it does work out, could make a good deal of money as it has low costs comparatively to bring over, that could be used to FUND other projects.

In other words, the money they make back on this can be used to make other projects, like more resources for the newer makers. How is it a waste of their time to hire a few translators to make an English version of a game that might net them some profit back from a product they missed out on thanks to a shoddy publisher?

Why should we pay for something we already have?
There are two main reasons and they both boil down to ethics.
The first is that it's illegal to use the engine. Okay, get the laughter out of your system. I'll wait.

Seriously though, supporting the system that has been loved and used so much over the years is a great thing. It makes you feel better, for one, and encourages Degica to listen to the fans about what they want, for two. Me, I like the idea of owning RM2K3. I like the thought that I've given back to the people who had such a large part of my youth. I remember the first time I even found out there was an RPG Maker and how awesome it was, thinking that I'd be able to make my own game, just like the ones I'd played in my childhood. I love the idea of giving something back for that.

Another reason is the RTP. Currently, unless you bought the Japanese version, using the RTP in any engine is illegal. Remember that RTP is sounds as well as graphics. The legal usage of a selection of music and sound effects... do I need to quote how much it costs to 'buy' music to use that flows and fits together? Hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. Seriously.

Owning the program. In English. Legally. This means, barring any rips or other illegal content, you may sell your game.

Xp/VX/VXA are better! Also, do 2k instead!
That's not a question, but I'll respond anyway. Yes, they're better in a lot of ways, but for those looking to push themselves when it comes to eventing, for those who are new to the programs, for those who like old school RPG charm? 2k3 is a better bet.
2k... well, as much as I love 2k, 2k3 offers something that NONE of the other makers have. A default side-view battle system. Also, better eventing.

How much will this cost? They should add extra stuff!
I put these two together because they relate. Firstly, they've said right out that the cost would be set at $20. Not too bad, eh? This is a program in English and the RTP for use in any other engine. Neato~

Adding extra stuff would just drive up the price and make things harder on their end. A translation, maybe a bug fix for the agility issue... That's what they're offering. They aren't going to recode a whole new engine, they aren't going to add scripting features or higher resolution or redo the graphical side of the RTp or add self switches (;. because doing so would take away from their other projects and drive up the price.

But what about patches and things like Cherry's support programs? Aren't they illegal?
Yes, of course they are. To make the patches they had to mess with the source code of the game and that is against the EULA. That said, it's like using rips. It's illegal, but as long as you're not trying to sell the game and waving big red flags, Degica isn't likely to be bothered prosecuting you for it. I mean, how many prosecutions have there been with the pirated version? Or even with VX games that use the Tile Swap patch? I can think of two, perhaps, and those were really popular and well-known outside of the community.
It's like editing rom files. The companies won't go out of their way to police it unless someone throws up a flare of some sort (That one Chrono Trigger fangame comes to mind.)

Is this official or are you just trying to gather support for a cause that has no chance of occurring?
This is official. If 1000 signatures are raised, Degica will do this. Why? Because a fan asked. How awesome is that?

Any other questions? Just ask.

Also? This.

Thanks to Iddalai for making it.

This post has been edited by Kayan: Apr 30 2012, 12:54 AM

[Rast]

Really depends on what they do to it. If they fix some of the bugs and add support for more image types, different image sizes, etc? Yeah, I could go for that. If not, I really don't see a point. Same program, same language, same restrictions?

The only real benefit I see is legally being able to sell your games made with it, but let's face it. How many RM2K3 users are there that will actually finish a game worth selling? Very few. Older users who did complete such a game may be interested in buying it solely to sell their games, but I don't see a lot of potential outside that.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to own a legal copy, but if I ever do finish a 2K3 game(working solo while managing life hinders this a bit), I probably wouldn't sell it, and with no updates/bugfixes that leaves little incentive to purchase it. Just updating those graphic restrictions would be enough for me, though, and maybe allowing some minor algorithm editing amongst other things.

[amerk]

The RM2K Value would be worth it, considering it fixes a lot of problems. But to not be allowed to use the patches and plug-ins for RM2K3? Considering the problems with the original RM2K3 program, I think they'd have to either really fix it up or allow the patches and plug-ins to make it worth while. Or add a script function to fix some of the problems. Otherwise, it wouldn't be worth it.

And considering that most of RM users are not planning for commercial development, they'd continue using illegal copies with their patches and plug-ins instead of buying a legit copy that prevents this.

[Rast]

And considering that most of RM users are not planning for commercial development, they'd continue using illegal copies with their patches and plug-ins instead of buying a legit copy that prevents this.

Yeah, pretty much. Honestly, if they just worked in a scripting system then the community would eventually fix most of the issues for them. Between some sort of scripting and enhanced graphic capabilities they could sell it for a modest amount and RM2K3 users like myself would still pay for it.

Or failing that, just update the graphic restrictions and implement something like Cherry's DynRPG SDK.

[amerk]

I would vote for the scripting system myself since there are so many possibilities. Only reason I like VX and Ace over older makers (I never could get into XP) is because of their scripts.

But RM2K/3 has such wonderful rips (NES style for sure) and additional default features that I'm torn between using that and using the Ace program I bought. I could learn to do more complicated event coding in 2K/3 without the use of scripts, though, which would probably help me more in the long run.

[Rast]

The only maker I bought was XP, and I don't really use it that much. I tried VX for a while, but it was too limited for my tastes. The only thing I really miss that 2K3 lacks are local switches.

Really, 2K3 is amazingly versatile. The DBS alone can easily be changed between a front view, side view, top down, etc with little work. I also love how easy it is to run. While it doesn't have your resources encrypted like XP, it'll run on pretty much any PC. That and the massive amount of resources already available for it.

[shinyjiggly]

I would love to be able to use 2003 totally legit. I don't even care if they don't give it any upgrades. I quite like working under restrictions (yes, even the 256 indexed color limit) and quite frankly, I'm horribly biased towards using it due to working with it since middle school.
(yes I signed the petition)

[Kayan]

So, Degica has said that if they do this it'd be a $20 cost. This means legal ability to use the RTP in any engine and, well, supporting more awesome releases from Degica.

How is this a bad thing? XD

[amerk]

It's not a bad thing, it's just it may not be worth it.

1. The only resources I like from 2K3 are the battlers and the audio. The tileset is ugly and needs to be customized by users to mesh well with new makers. For a lot of people, that may not be a difficult task, but new users may not have the know-how, and so they're stuck with horribly out-dated graphics that they can't really use without clashing.

2. RM2K3 is all over the internet as an illegal freeware. Would somebody really pay for something they can find for free? Sure, there are some that would pay for a legal copy, but I really can't see somebody who is only using it to house all their illegal ripped graphics, and illegal plug-ins and patches, spending money on something they probably won't or can't use for commercial use, only to cause it to be illegal once more by re-applying David or Goliath patches and breaking the EULA.

3. It's been stated that beyond a translation, EB! probably won't take the time to fix the flaws or make any updates. So you're getting the same thing that's already available on the internet for free, minus the patches and plug-ins.

3. If EB! is fine with this and still wants to provide a legit copy, knowing it won't go very far, that's fine, but EB! is a company, and like every other company they are out to make money. If they invest time and resources into something that doesn't pay off, this may cost us in the future, especially if EB! decides not to invest in us ever again. I'd rather they focus on their most current maker and provide patches and upgrades for that (and maybe update the 2K3 resources to fit VX-Ace, then spend it on a program that may not pay off.

[Rast]

3. If EB! is fine with this and still wants to provide a legit copy, knowing it won't go very far, that's fine, but EB! is a company, and like every other company they are out to make money. If they invest time and resources into something that doesn't pay off, this may cost us in the future, especially if EB! decides not to invest in us ever again. I'd rather they focus on their most current maker and provide patches and upgrades for that (and maybe update the 2K3 resources to fit VX-Ace, then spend it on a program that may not pay off.

Which is why I'm sure the most they'll do is minor bug fixing and graphics updates. While scripting would be nice, if they added scripting, better graphic usage, bug fixes, etc, then what would we have? An engine that could literally do everything the new ones can for a fraction of the cost($20).

I agree with amerk, though. Not a bad thing as it's going right now, but if they're just going to wipe the dust off a dated product and put it up for sale it probably won't be worth it.

[amerk]

Right, and I'm fine with the minor upgrades without the major fixes if they allow use of the current patches and plug-ins, which sort of would accomplish what a script add-on would, but without the cost.

I don't personally understand why they'd have a problem with this. If they let people continue to use Cherry's upgrades with a legal maker, they don't have to spend much money, and everybody is still happy because they have a way to get the best out of the maker without the use of scripts. But for them to say the patches and plug-ins breaks the EULA and not allowed, I can't see this really going anywhere, considering that without the patches and plug-ins the program is somewhat broken.

[Kayan]

The reason the patches break the EULA is because they have to hack the source code to mess with it in the first place. That's like taking a Zelda ROM and changing stuff in it - it's not legal, but as long as you don't wave flags around and try to sell it, Nintendo isn't gonna jump all over your arse.

That said, the monetary gain is something that will end up helping the company. It can help to fund some of the newer engines add-ons, like the Samurai pack and the new Ogg pack. (I hear tell there may be another graphics pack down the track, so this doesn't detract from their ability to release new things).

As Touchfuzzy (Lead Admin of the Official site) pointed out:

I'm going to use variables because I have no idea exact costs. Let's say we have Project 1 and Project 2.

Project 1 costs x to produce, and brings in 10x

Project 2 costs 2x to produce, and brings in 10x

If we do just Project 1 we make 9x, if we do just Project 2 we make 8x. If we did BOTH projects, we could make 17x.

Hence why if something sounds like we will make x's we will find the money to do it. Also, translating 2k3 if it does work out, could make a good deal of money as it has low costs comparatively to bring over, that could be used to FUND other projects.

As to why it's being done so late? Degica, the current publisher, isn't the same one that was in charge when 2k3 came out. That was Protexus, and they snubbed the English side of the market completely. It was around the time of XP when Degica took over and it's thanks to them that the newer versions were released in English at all. Of course, at the time they had their hands full trying to promote goodwill back into the English community.

It was only after someone actually asked them about an English translation that they considered it. And that's where we are now. They've said that if we can raise enough of a market for it, they'd be happy to do this.

This post has been edited by Kayan: Apr 28 2012, 04:33 PM

[amerk]

I understand that, but if they're not going to allow the plugs and patches to be used (at least not legally) then they should at least fix some of the bigger problems (especially the awful ATB). My point isn't whether a person will get in trouble or not. If that was an issue, most RM users would have been in trouble a long time ago.

The problem is, without these patches and plugs, the same issues that hurt 2K3 to begin with will still be present. And while you can probably add the plugs and patches right back in once you own a legal copy without much worry, you'd essentially be doing just the opposite of what you're paying to fix, in that you'd be taking a legal copy, breaking the EULA, and making it illegal all over again. It seems like a waste of $20 (in my opinion) to damage something you now own, and it would essentially remove any chance (however remote) of ever using your copy for commercial game selling.

Everybody is different, and there are those willing to spend the money for a legal copy, and my hat's off to them. But for the reasons I mentioned above, I probably won't be paying into this. On the other hand, I'd be glad to pay for a copy of RM2K Value, as that more or less does fix the problems I have mentioned, and it doesn't rely on illegal patches and upgrades.