Plot, Continuing from Ideas. Options

[Sparrowsmith]

The closest thing we have to a plot synopsis can be found here: http://www.rpgrevolution.com/forums/index....st&p=557072
but there is still a lot of work to do.

Mainly, we need to work out some characters. Who are they and, more importantly, how do they behave/develop?

We have a few character outlines:
-The 'main' protagonist. The first one to log off the game/one who returns to his original body in layer 3
-The fighter. One of the two members of the group who does not own the game. He is an adept martial artist of some kind and spends his introduction robbing a warehouse for a copy of the game and then saving the 'main' protagonist from a group of monsters.
-The fighter's accomplice. An unwitting ally. Also doesn't have the game.
-The programmer that shoots the Rogue Program
-The programmer that contacts Matryoska (spell fail) might be the same programmer as above
-The Rogue Program (quite developed, but still a little weak in characterization)

We need to develop these, and make some more, then develop them as characters. I'd rather not have us submitting characters, but trying to work out how these people should act according to their situation.
Let's get these characters worked out, nice and logical like. Also, any additional plot points. We gotta work them out too.

We're kind of slowing down here, let's not have that.

[shinyjiggly]

I'd like to take a crack at the fighter's partner in crime. *slammed with a bo staff for lame pun*
So, this kid, I'm thinking, could be a pyro? As in, he would use a lighter to burn things often or something. I'm thinking that he probably met the fighter one day when he was getting beat up by some bullies in an alley or something and the fighter totally kicked their butts for him. And then later it would turn out that pyro kid sort of deserved the pummeling because he ____(insert some childish reason here)?
But of course, he needs more than just an affinity for burning stuff. Perhaps he could also be a closet bookworm who's totally into all the classics?
At home, I see him mostly watched by his father while his mom is busy pursuing her career in marketing. Most likely he hasn't really gotten into the "looking for a girlfriend" stage quite yet. He'd probably have to be somewhat reliable for the fighter to trust him in their warehouse episode.

Is this the sort of stuff that we should be working towards developing?

[bulmabriefs144]

Let's see...

There should also be:

- Several programmers trying to help out the heroes (layer 3)
- Extras: Friends and teachers (layer 2), NPC characters (layer 1), extra programmers (layer 3)
- Other party members (layer 1):

Since the main protagonist is leader, it's probably either a straight warrior or a warrior-mage type (hexblade/ druid/ red mage/ paladin/ ranger). Straight wizard types are seldom rpg leaders because they fall too easily, disrupting morale.

A simple party has warrior, healer, wizard, and thief. A more complicated party might have up to 7+ people, and anything from basic classes like thief and cleric to really weird ones like geomancer or a time wizard. Now a balanced party has about even offensive melee, and support classes, so let's say...

(Main Party)
Leader (whatever class we decide, using the notes above, probably a fighter though)
Priest (healing, buffs, and anti-evil)
Wizard (offensive magic)
Thief (multi-hit/steal)
(Backup)
Geomancer (terrain magic, some sorta special system)
Druid (hybrid)/Chronomancer (effect)/Witch (debuff)
Guardian (Uses a shield as a weapon and emphasizes defense skills)
(Haven't Got Game Yet)
Black Belt (not yet joined, multi-hit and can deal damage unarmed)
Other (not yet joined, maybe a pyro wizard?)

We'd need a fairly effective party change system (VX Ace has a very easy one to use), since this game will have a HUGE number of party members.

Also, who's to say the martial artist need be a guy? Maybe it's a tough gal, with the partner along for the ride (sort of, pardon the reference, a Kim Possible dynamic).

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 1 2012, 05:06 AM

[Sparrowsmith]

I'd like to take a crack at the fighter's partner in crime. *slammed with a bo staff for lame pun*
So, this kid, I'm thinking, could be a pyro? As in, he would use a lighter to burn things often or something. I'm thinking that he probably met the fighter one day when he was getting beat up by some bullies in an alley or something and the fighter totally kicked their butts for him. And then later it would turn out that pyro kid sort of deserved the pummeling because he ____(insert some childish reason here)?
But of course, he needs more than just an affinity for burning stuff. Perhaps he could also be a closet bookworm who's totally into all the classics?
At home, I see him mostly watched by his father while his mom is busy pursuing her career in marketing. Most likely he hasn't really gotten into the "looking for a girlfriend" stage quite yet. He'd probably have to be somewhat reliable for the fighter to trust him in their warehouse episode.

Is this the sort of stuff that we should be working towards developing?

It most certainly is.

I like the idea of him being a bit of a pyromaniac, maybe even a rather serious one. It'll help when they set up a campfire later...
This is a good moment to establish flaws as well. The pyro guy could have brought the fight on themselves, but that doesn't really mean it has to be bullying. I can think of a few situations where the Pyro is in a moral grey area.
We'll work that out later.
So the fighter comes to their rescue. It's not just a 'I'll help that person' reaction. The fighter actually wants to try out their fighting skills, and only sides with the Pyro so they can get more action in the fight. They're not a bad person, just likes to practice their skills. This is one of the reasons they (I'm trying to be gender neutral) break into the warehouse later. The fighter wants to practice sneaking around.
So the Fighter is morally grey. They rush into trouble without thinking, and only after do they ask whether they're on the right side. This is something they can work on.
The Pyro, on the other hand, has a habit of bringing trouble on himself. Trouble which he's not too good at fending off. The Pyro has to learn to make decisions for themselves, but for the right reasons. Picking their battles.

Let's see...

There should also be:

- Several programmers trying to help out the heroes (layer 3)
- Extras: Friends and teachers (layer 2), NPC characters (layer 1), extra programmers (layer 3)
- Other party members (layer 1):

Since the main protagonist is leader, it's probably either a straight warrior or a warrior-mage type (hexblade/ druid/ red mage/ paladin/ ranger). Straight wizard types are seldom rpg leaders because they fall too easily, disrupting morale.

A simple party has warrior, healer, wizard, and thief. A more complicated party might have up to 7+ people, and anything from basic classes like thief and cleric to really weird ones like geomancer or a time wizard. Now a balanced party has about even offensive melee, and support classes, so let's say...

(Main Party)
Leader (whatever class we decide, using the notes above, probably a fighter though)
Priest (healing, buffs, and anti-evil)
Wizard (offensive magic)
Thief (multi-hit/steal)
(Backup)
Geomancer (terrain magic, some sorta special system)
Druid (hybrid)/Chronomancer (effect)/Witch (debuff)
Guardian (Uses a shield as a weapon and emphasizes defense skills)
(Haven't Got Game Yet)
Black Belt (not yet joined, multi-hit and can deal damage unarmed)
Other (not yet joined, maybe a pyro wizard?)

We'd need a fairly effective party change system (VX Ace has a very easy one to use), since this game will have a HUGE number of party members.

Also, who's to say the martial artist need be a guy? Maybe it's a tough gal, with the partner along for the ride (sort of, pardon the reference, a Kim Possible dynamic).

This all seems about right, not sure what to make of it yet, but we can apply it as we go.

I kind of like the idea of making the fighter a bruiser girl. It could add a nice dichotomy between her and the Pyro.
On the one hand, the Pyro is infatuated with her because she saved his ass. On the other hand, the Pyro feels kind of emasculated by her because she could quite easily kick his ass.
This kind of explains why he's an unwitting accomplice. He tags along with the fighter because he wants to prove himself, in a manner of speaking.

We should be careful not to make the Pyro too timid, or to make the Fighter too heroic. At the end of the day they are a pyromaniac and a girl who likes to beat people up. They've both got a lot to learn, and have their own strengths and weaknesses in their own way.

[bulmabriefs144]

Sounds fun.

What about the main/backup party? I just sorta hashed those together on the fly. It could be vastly different, like Exorcist instead of Priest (no healing spells), Oracle instead of Wizard (yin/yang magic), or other stuff.

[Kaust]

1)A simple party has warrior, healer, wizard, and thief. A more complicated party might have up to 7+ people, and anything from basic classes like thief and cleric to really weird ones like geomancer or a time wizard. Now a balanced party has about even offensive melee, and support classes
...
2)We'd need a fairly effective party change system (VX Ace has a very easy one to use), since this game will have a HUGE number of party members.

1)The game opens as an mmo, so what is one major aspect that people love about mmos? (just in case you don't play them I'll answer myself) its the character customization, they tend to give players much greater control over how a character is being 'built' than console games. If its important that the layer2 player already has a character then its too late for this idea (I actually prefer it like this, better stories open by 'dropping in' on the protagonist, otherwise its like the guy had no existence prior to the events we play through), but if not then it would give us a good place to stick in any possible tutorials on battle systems or whatever since that's when tutorials'd be found in a conventional game.

2)...Where'd this come from?

[thatbennyguy]

1)The game opens as an mmo

That is a good idea, but it might not be realistic. For example, in an MMO, there are hundreds/thousands of players in a world at once, so how will we simulate that in the game? Another thing is that the player will control the four characters as a party, which is unlike an MMO where the players are individually controlled and can go their separate ways. Also, an MMO is a (slightly) impersonal experience, whereas these four are fighting as a team through a dungeon that has a storyline. MMOs lack this. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but what I am saying is that we have to be careful not to provoke disbelief.

I prefer to think of it as a LAN RPG, where they're all playing in the same room, co-operatively slaying monsters. However, this brings up the impossible nature of an "update" to a LAN game. So if we go with this option, then we have to find another reason why it crashes, perhaps because of a glitch in the game or something. That's just my opinion.

[shinyjiggly]

Well, what if it works like the way online multiplayer does in minecraft? Those only let a limited amount of players on and theoretically there could be a boot out for server updates and such. That way we don't have to put 100 crazy running noobs in the background (lower it to about 2-5) but we can still have the story-required downtime.

[Sparrowsmith]

1)The game opens as an mmo

That is a good idea, but it might not be realistic. For example, in an MMO, there are hundreds/thousands of players in a world at once, so how will we simulate that in the game? Another thing is that the player will control the four characters as a party, which is unlike an MMO where the players are individually controlled and can go their separate ways. Also, an MMO is a (slightly) impersonal experience, whereas these four are fighting as a team through a dungeon that has a storyline. MMOs lack this. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but what I am saying is that we have to be careful not to provoke disbelief.

I prefer to think of it as a LAN RPG, where they're all playing in the same room, co-operatively slaying monsters. However, this brings up the impossible nature of an "update" to a LAN game. So if we go with this option, then we have to find another reason why it crashes, perhaps because of a glitch in the game or something. That's just my opinion.

This is why I think we stick to a single quest. The quests in this game are closed entry, so each party plays a separate version, but the game as a whole is online. When doing puzzles the players are all separate, and when fighting the enemies, the battle system is just a way to represent them all battling away.
Much like in a real fantasy game the fighters aren't taking turns, they aren't here either, that's just a stylistic representation we're doing.

[bulmabriefs144]

1)A simple party has warrior, healer, wizard, and thief. A more complicated party might have up to 7+ people, and anything from basic classes like thief and cleric to really weird ones like geomancer or a time wizard. Now a balanced party has about even offensive melee, and support classes
...
2)We'd need a fairly effective party change system (VX Ace has a very easy one to use), since this game will have a HUGE number of party members.

1)The game opens as an mmo, so what is one major aspect that people love about mmos? (just in case you don't play them I'll answer myself) its the character customization, they tend to give players much greater control over how a character is being 'built' than console games. If its important that the layer2 player already has a character then its too late for this idea (I actually prefer it like this, better stories open by 'dropping in' on the protagonist, otherwise its like the guy had no existence prior to the events we play through), but if not then it would give us a good place to stick in any possible tutorials on battle systems or whatever since that's when tutorials'd be found in a conventional game.

2)...Where'd this come from?

1) Heyyy, that reminded me. There was some VX dungeon crawler game that had like thirty or so classes. I think it was this one. If we can do this sorta system for like all the secondary characters (we can decide the leader's class personally) we'd have that sort of MMO feel.

2) I'm just saying. I tested VX Ace out, and I had like nine people in a party. It had a built in Formation function that left me swap out party order, and the people outside didn't gain exp (unless you enable it, in System). This sorta is like some MMOs where you have a bunch of Friends, but only like 6 people or some number could actually be in the party at one time.

You ever play the Dot Hack games? The whole thing about simulating independent characters is there. There are times when certain party members are not available for recruitment, because they're offline. Also, you have a bunch of roaming extra characters in towns and stuff. Some might be in dungeons too, and join you if you make friends with them. Or they might brush you off and go their own way.

A line randomizer might be a good code, since these extras saying the same thing every time would be bad. (Ewww, the thread responses sorta stalled)

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 5 2012, 03:35 AM

[Jens of Zanicuud]

We need to develop these, and make some more, then develop them as characters. I'd rather not have us submitting characters, but trying to work out how these people should act according to their situation.

Ok, first of all, a question.
I read the plot, but didn' understood if programmers are playable in battle.
If so, their skills could be set according to their roles.

Example: one of the programmers could change enemies source code, shifting its form to something weaker (obviously, with a certain success rate) or stop the programs being updated / refreshed for some time (i.e. stop,slow), something like this.

I don't know why, but while reading the plot, I imagined the programmer who shots the Rogue Program in his "human version" as a quite nervous, fearful guy who often babbles and sweats profusely. I imagined he accepted to shot the man (in order to try their new "revival" features), because he sees the program itself as a world in which he can make the rules and give a different image of himself, a world he can modify at his will, while in his true life he can't do anything similar. Shooting a person without being pursued by law, without actually killing nobody... well, this should make him feel like a sort of God, in contrast with his coward and troubled personality...

Well, this is my opinion on that.

Jens

This post has been edited by Jens of Zanicuud: May 5 2012, 06:47 AM

[Sparrowsmith]

We need to develop these, and make some more, then develop them as characters. I'd rather not have us submitting characters, but trying to work out how these people should act according to their situation.

Ok, first of all, a question.
I read the plot, but didn' understood if programmers are playable in battle.
If so, their skills could be set according to their roles.

Example: one of the programmers could change enemies source code, shifting its form to something weaker (obviously, with a certain success rate) or stop the programs being updated / refreshed for some time (i.e. stop,slow), something like this.

I don't know why, but while reading the plot, I imagined the programmer who shots the Rogue Program in his "human version" as a quite nervous, fearful guy who often babbles and sweats profusely. I imagined he accepted to shot the man (in order to try their new "revival" features), because he sees the program itself as a world in which he can make the rules and give a different image of himself, a world he can modify at his will, while in his true life he can't do anything similar. Shooting a person without being pursued by law, without actually killing nobody... well, this should make him feel like a sort of God, in contrast with his coward and troubled personality...

Well, this is my opinion on that.

Jens

I had a similar thought when I wrote that, so I think we can work with that.

As for the programmers, they don't directly interact with any enemies (except possibly security systems on layer 3) but they do aid the players. I'm not sure how we can represent this in battle, but it seems like less of a plot point and more of a gameplay issue.

[bulmabriefs144]

Any programmer I made based on myself makes stuff called Incomplete Code (I'm always doing this, fiddling around with code, making new stuff instead of finishing the games I work on). Basically monster summons that sorta fragment out, and magic spells with a high fizzle chance.

I'm thinking if they "battle" it's sorta battle screen versus a keycode console. The console takes no damage from physical attacks, but they have a special command called Hack or Type or Patch whatever that lets the console get bypassed by enemy defeat (or End Battle). Or maybe it's based on a number input that has to be pushed. In fact, you could have some that respond to hacking, and some need a special code (since they're double or triple protected vs hacking), and some have incomplete or buggy programs and therefore need a patch rather than a hack. The guy with the Type command should probably have a list of some sort they can reference. This is not counting a second skill Program which does stuff like delay codes. 2k3 can do this, since it has custom commands linked to battle. Dunno about XP or VX though.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: May 6 2012, 05:48 PM

[shinyjiggly]

For programmer's actions in battle, I was thinking that a layer 2 character would have to do something specific to get the layer 3 programmer of their choice to help them slightly. After the layer 2 character does their attention-grabbing action, they can yell out what they want a specific programmer to do (example: Shelly, can make flowers grow on their heads please?).
It would take a couple of turns to activate the mod and sometimes the requested programmer won't be around at the time or they simply won't want to do something stupid like make flowers grow on the monsters' heads or something. Also, sometimes a mod will fail and give the opposite result. Also, a single programmer can only be called upon once per battle and their expertise can only be used if the current characters know about them at that particular part of the story.
Another thing that would happen is that something would eventually undo the mods after a couple of turns of being active. (we would need some in-game reasons for the mods wearing off.)

Now for plot stuff that could go with this system, one of the layer 2 characters eventually would meet an avatar of a layer 3 character that would be willing to help them out and then he give that character a phone number to call him in a pinch. For a while, this layer 2 guy is just fine and dandy, until when the layer 1 monsters start showing up. The first time that he has to battle a layer 1 monster in his layer 2 form, he is nearly wiped out until he calls the phone number. Then suddenly, the monster's head size doubles and it is immobilized! For a while layer 2 guy thinks that the phone number is magic, do to the sparkly effects, but it is later revealed that the phone number is the number to the layer 3 guy's cell phone.
Before then, he might meet a couple other willing avatars of the layer 3 programmers and receive their phone numbers, but their numbers would each only do one specific thing until the plot twist happens. When it does, he'll then be able to choose from a couple different mods from each programmer's number instead of only having one.

Each time a programmer applies a mod, their modding skill goes up by a certain amount, depending on the complexity of the mod and how many times they've done that particular mod before. When they gain more skill, they'll be able to code old mods faster and occasionally come up with new ones.
Sometimes due to certain events that may radically change the codebase of certain things in layer 2, the speed to apply a mod will be reset back to default, not affecting the availability of newly added mods. Also, certain monsters might have more anti-mod encryption than others, which would slow down the speed of mod application as well.

Hopefully there's enough plot hidden away in this chunk of gameplay mechanics to rationalize it being in the plot thread.

[ShanattoGunner]

I thnk in battle each programer sponsor a hero and that hero could use an abillty based on that type of programmer, so like
let's say Sally is sponsoring,or using, Jiggly then if the player inputs a command or a gauge called a synchronize gauge,or a Sync Gauge,
fill up then the programmer has full control over the hero, but Sally's programmer profession is Debug. She could use Jiggly to Debug, or buff
the characters, which could also mean that Jiggly can now debuff the enemis as well whatever works for you guys.

Also, is the wizard slot taken up by anyone? If not then my character Luxis de Oswell be in that slot?

[MEands]

Isn't that already what's happening on the layer 1 to layer 2 switch? We don't want to become repetative.

(Right now I'm just being a downer, I'll come up with some ideas once I get out of school)

[shinyjiggly]

It's a little bit different than that.
With layer one, there are two distinct groups: NPC's (natives of layer 1) and avatars of layer 2 characters.
In layer two, some layer 3 characters can be found as their avatars, but most likely none of them will be in the party at any particular point. Instead of a playable layer 2 character totally becoming an avatar for a layer 3 character, the layer 3 peeps can only assist a particular layer 2 character when they are totally on the same page (the sync meter idea posted above) and there is mutual consent for a momentary channeling of the programmer's abilities.
And when that happens, both of them are theoretically in control at the same time, it's just that because they're synced for that small little moment, there are no power struggles. But as soon as they un-sync, the layer 3 guy will lose the connection until they are able to sync up once again.
(Sometimes this layer stuff is confusing... @_@)

And don't worry about asking questions, each answer brings us closer to understanding what exactly we're doing and how we're going to pull it off.

[Sparrowsmith]

We do have to be careful with how much power the programmers have. Too much and the main characters become unnecessary, too little and the programmers become useless. I imagined the programmers are unable to help directly, due to the Rogue Program, but can teach our heroes new abilities, or code new abilities for them.
I thought that maybe one of the characters without the game (the pyromaniac character, maybe) is taught how to alter the game world by learning the code. To begin with he's very weak, useless even, but as he levels he becomes INCREDIBLY powerful, maybe he can just delete enemies outright once he's a high enough level.

[ShanattoGunner]

We do have to be careful with how much power the programmers have. Too much and the main characters become unnecessary, too little and the programmers become useless. I imagined the programmers are unable to help directly, due to the Rogue Program, but can teach our heroes new abilities, or code new abilities for them.
I thought that maybe one of the characters without the game (the pyromaniac character, maybe) is taught how to alter the game world by learning the code. To begin with he's very weak, useless even, but as he levels he becomes INCREDIBLY powerful, maybe he can just delete enemies outright once he's a high enough level.

Kinda like Code Lyoko

[Sparrowsmith]

Yeah, something along those.lines.