Leveling System theory, Leveling only unlocks abilities Options

[IIomenII]

Hello!

Was having a discussion with a friend of mine over how MMORPGS are pretty much copy pastes of each other and usually get called "WoW Clones." This eventually lead to "well what would you do to change it then?" So thought I'd share my idea with RRR just incase anyone could be inspired by it...

Remember this is with an MMORPG in mind...but could be altered to fit a console game.


*Every player has set base states at level 1....they differ depending on if you are a MAGE WARRIOR ROUGE CLERIC

*When you level you do not gain any stats what so ever....just unlock abilities at set levels that are unique to your chosen job class

*Weapons unlock Weapon Skills you can only use while that weapon is equipped

*Gear gives Defense and effects and abilities....Gear would have level requirements in order to use
-Heavy Armor makes you heavy but much higher def
-Light Armor doesn't weigh you down...with moderate def
-Cloth Armor gives no def...not weigh down...But major magic resistance

-Abilities can be used with equipped gear
-Special boots that let you jump high
-Special Mask that makes you immune to Fear effects
-Special Cloak that makes you drop "hate" when used (cant do any action while in use) and regain "hate" once removed
- ETC

*Lots of "Open World" multi player content that promotes group playing.
-Easy grouping options

There are many pros and cons with this design

Pros

*Can customize character with abilities pretty easily

*Most content in the game would be what is considered "end game content" in current MMORPGS

*New players and Veteran players could easily group together for a common goal (Money, EXPERIENCE POINTS, Special game currency,
Gear/weapon rewards.)

*No "grind" to cap level in order to actually play the main focus of the game. (Always hated that...most MMOs it feels like you have to be max level THEEEEEEN you can play the game.)

*Playing the content and enjoying the victory is the focus of the game....not stats

Cons

*Playing the content and enjoying the victory is the focus of the game....not stats (I posted this as PRO and CON because some people only play MMORPGs to get that "Im godly and I'm better than you" kinda feel....which this design doesn't promote nearly as much

*Developers have to make sure there is enough content to keep players playing for years.....without that Grind to max level that can take a month or two that time has to be filled with content that can be played by players of all levels.

EXAMPLES OF GAMES WHERE STATS DONT MATTER

Team Fortress 2.....players work together to defeat the other team using their chosen class
Super Mario Series
Any First person shooter....just mattered what weapon you have
Left for dead




So thats the skeleton of the idea i had....Feel free to add to it...or bash it horribly.

[bulmabriefs144]

By any chance, have you been playing FFXII?

[Essenceblade]

By any chance, have you been playing FFXII?

FFXII - International Zodiac Job System, you mean.

It sounds a lot like a mix between FF12 IZJS and FFXI Online.

[IIomenII]

Just googled FF12 IZJS...I kinda see where you saw similarities but there is no board..abilities from items can not be learned....they can only be used if that piece of gear is currently equipped...the only abilities you retain no matter what is your class abilities from leveling. And I dont see any similarities to FFXI except the typical MMORPG frustrations i mentioned. ;-)

[Moonpearl]

The leveling system in itself is flawed. It's based on a capitalist conception of character growth: one can only get stronger/gain more abilities. When playing a RPG, no matter how bad you play, your character can only improve, so a player who spends hundreds of hours fighting randomly shall get stronger than a player who plays occasionnally but tries his best to fight in finesse and explore new strategies. As long as we're on the formula "more battles = more exp", people will be forced to play in the dumbest and most repetitive possible way to maximize their efficiency, and that's the true sadness in nowadays RPG/MMORPG, in my opinion.

Alternative existing systems/own ideas:

• FF2 - No XP, no levels. Characters progress independently in each attribute depending on their actions in battle. Thus, if you go for simple attacking, even if it's enough to kill the enemy in one hit, your Strength will never go up, you have to intentionally try and deal as massive damage as you possibly can. And succesfully fleeing battles may increase your Speed! Thus characters become what you do with them.
• FF8 - XP & levels are present, but they only increase bais parameters slightly - they draw most of their power from Guardian Forces, which are the actual holders of skills and customizing abilities. Thus characters can be whatever you want them to be, as long as you have the appropriate GFs and magic. Similar mechanics can be found in the Persona series.
• FF12 - XP & levels are present, but they don't give new abilities. Those are obtained by purchasing licenses, which once again offer many customization possibilities.
• Deteriorating system - No XP, no levels, each parameter is increased in a mechanic similar to that of FF2. Additionally, parameters tend do decrease naturally over time, simulating characters getting out of shape in each parameter unless they are being kept up. It would force players to vary the way they fight to prevent parameters that are never used to deplete completely.
• Newness system - XP & levels may be present, but the amount of XP gained varies depending on how exceptional the battle was, simulating characters learning much from newness, and little from known situations. This would need an algorithm to assess how different from the usual the battle went, then multiply XP accordingly. Thus, players would be required to explore new strategies constantly, otherwise their characters could end up gaining near to 0 XP and thus fighting for nothing.
• Free skills system - XP & levels may be present, but they don't unlock new skills. Those are acquired by undergoing appropriate training at dojos (or whatever appropriate place). Thus it's entirely up to you how you want your characters to grow. Additionally, some skills might "disturb" each others, like learning both aggressive and defensive skills can make a powerful combination, but reduce each other's efficiency in return. - or there could be a malus based on how many skills have been learned, making one extremely powerful as long as it's completely alone. This would force players to make strategic choices regarding whom to teach what.

That's about what I can think of for now. My point is that, the day people understand XP/levels are not essential to a RPG, mankind will have taken a great step forwards.

[bulmabriefs144]

By any chance, have you been playing FFXII?

FFXII - International Zodiac Job System, you mean.

It sounds a lot like a mix between FF12 IZJS and FFXI Online.

Well, not just the zodiac system, the way armor works. The only difference is that light armor tends to be elemental.

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Mar 22 2012, 10:02 AM

[Oceans Dream]

The leveling system in itself is flawed. It's based on a capitalist conception of character growth: one can only get stronger/gain more abilities. When playing a RPG, no matter how bad you play, your character can only improve, so a player who spends hundreds of hours fighting randomly shall get stronger than a player who plays occasionnally but tries his best to fight in finesse and explore new strategies. As long as we're on the formula "more battles = more exp", people will be forced to play in the dumbest and most repetitive possible way to maximize their efficiency, and that's the true sadness in nowadays RPG/MMORPG, in my opinion.

Well most of the things done in MMOs are just to maximize player play time and keep them paying subscription money. They're developed with random loot, repetitive tasks and huge worlds for the sake of keeping people playing when they don't actually have the time to make that much content to keep people busy for months or even years. Or for single player games, to have that "60+ Hours gameplay" in the back of the box because RPG players tend to expect that. Some even like grinding!

The good thing for levelling however, is it makes even a bad player be able to possibly beat the game as long as they invest enough time in it, whereas a better player can get through at a lower level and even do low level runs on youtube or whatever they like, or simply brag about it (or get a challenge from it). Lots of different types of players out there really, so what is challenging for one person might be easy for another.

It's just funny when they complain that the game is too easy when they're on Level 99. Of course it would be, if the game is balanced for you to beat it at Level 40-50!

[Moonpearl]

The good thing for levelling however, is it makes even a bad player be able to possibly beat the game as long as they invest enough time in it, whereas a better player can get through at a lower level

I don't agree with that. As a careful player, I always do everything in my power to maximize my chances to progress, studying and extensively using every mechanic the game has to offer, even though I may be at a lower level because I hate losing time fighting around just for the sake of earning more XP. Well then, I often find myself in such a situation that I just cannot beat this boss or that, even using every trick in the book, just because I haven't leveled up enough. So what you consider a good thing is actually a bad thing for me: it forces even players who try hard to dumbly fight for hours and hours. And as far as I'm concerned, it really pisses me off.

[bulmabriefs144]

I also don't agree with that. Part of the skill is figuring out how to beat the system.

A good game has generally slow experience, but some high hunting grounds with more challenging enemies, forcing the character to either test their skill, or spend hours on hours training in a bad zone. I've found low level victor is good, but find that sweet spot where you can get huge exp and enough money to buy that one equip that costs like a zillion, is also highly rewarding, when you manage it by finding (and beating) those Metal King Slimes.

It's possible also to penalize bad players by making experience (or even level) loss, if the party dies. Nightmare of Druaga has it even more messed up, if you shut off the game without saving (which you might do for instance if you died and tried to avoid the penalty of death), the game knows from lack of recent save file, and you get lectured about "breaking the cycle of time" and punished. This also helps to blur the line between an rpg and an mmo.

I think I found Newness system in only one game I can remember, called Treasure Hunt G or something. The Free skill sounds like Daggerfall/Elder Scrolls (which could also increase by just using the same skill for like a straight hour).

This post has been edited by bulmabriefs144: Mar 22 2012, 01:53 PM

[Oceans Dream]

The good thing for levelling however, is it makes even a bad player be able to possibly beat the game as long as they invest enough time in it, whereas a better player can get through at a lower level

I don't agree with that. As a careful player, I always do everything in my power to maximize my chances to progress, studying and extensively using every mechanic the game has to offer, even though I may be at a lower level because I hate losing time fighting around just for the sake of earning more XP. Well then, I often find myself in such a situation that I just cannot beat this boss or that, even using every trick in the book, just because I haven't leveled up enough. So what you consider a good thing is actually a bad thing for me: it forces even players who try hard to dumbly fight for hours and hours. And as far as I'm concerned, it really pisses me off.

Eh, I'm not arguing for that. I hate grinding. I think the game should be balanced for those at natural levels and definitely possible (but hard) for those underlevelled. It's more an option for those who are really bad at it to be able to give them a little extra help. I'd say the game mechanics should be such so that levelling is not the best method to win, only something that can help if they're really having some trouble (If at all). The problem with most RPGs is they tend to be grind happy or require it, and that I don't agree with nor do you. This is a big problem particularly if most of your stats/growth come from levelling rather than other places such as equipment for example. Comes back to the time padding issue I mentioned before. They're doing it so they can put that their game has x amount of game time, even though we recognize it's just wasting our time.

For example, in Paradise Blue I had most of the stats be from equipment rather than leveling. You could level if you'd like for more HP or MP but even then there was equipment or abilities that could boost your HP/MP. So it was entirely possible to beat it at Level 1, and even players who did level up found it hard if they didn't know what they were doing. But it was still an option.

I think I could express it better since I was misinterpreted. I think it's more a way that it doesn't freeze someone from continuing if they really aren't all that good at the game. "So they should get better/learn the game instead!!" and while that could be true, their motivation for playing may be the story/character interaction rather than for the battle system for example. Plus peoples minds work differently too. Or they are too used to a lot of games where x doesn't work well so they assume it doesn't in this game as well where in fact it does and is a very useful strategy.

This post has been edited by Oceans Dream: Mar 22 2012, 03:15 PM

[Lydyn]

My dad once said to me, "you can't please everyone. If half of the people love you [for it] and the other half hate you [for it], you've done a good job." What it really comes down to is this; there is no perfect system and there never will be, because people are inherently different and thus enjoy different things.

You're never going to please everyone, so design a combat system for the target audience you want playing your game. If you want thinkers that enjoy complex strategies in a combat system, then design it so. If you care less for such individuals or feel a need to share a combat system that rewards those individuals who love to grind, then design it after that. If the focus of your game is story, then even design your combat system around that. In my opinion, all these are good ideas - it just depends on your target audience.

[Essenceblade]

My dad once said to me, "you can't please everyone. If half of the people love you [for it] and the other half hate you [for it], you've done a good job." What it really comes down to is this; there is no perfect system and there never will be, because people are inherently different and thus enjoy different things.

You're never going to please everyone, so design a combat system for the target audience you want playing your game. If you want thinkers that enjoy complex strategies in a combat system, then design it so. If you care less for such individuals or feel a need to share a combat system that rewards those individuals who love to grind, then design it after that. If the focus of your game is story, then even design your combat system around that. In my opinion, all these are good ideas - it just depends on your target audience.

Exactly. You can't please everyone. Just because of a few people's opinions on a way a story is told, or how game play should unravel is just as it is - their opinion. There's no point in shaping your game at every angle possible to suit the 90% of the people who say story is better than game play, but then shaping it in a way which the game play takes a higher priority. It just doesn't work, and you'll make a mess of what you're doing, and may end up just losing faith in your project.

As stated, you generally shape what you're doing around features of that specific genre. Like how RPGs are more so story driven, but then you add things that make your game unique, like a specific battle system, or traveling system. But in RPGs, the general reason they exist is because RPGs are story driven. From the story being told by characters, to (I feel like I AM the character telling the story) stories.

You can't expect a game and receive no criticism. There will always be something to criticize. If there isn't, you've performed a miracle, or god knows. The very existence of criticism is just a relic of someone's opinion on what you should change. There are constructive criticisms, and just opinion criticisms. Generally, you take it and change what needs to be changed, but when people say things like "I felt the battle system got too challenging and complicated at times" you're not going to change your entire game for that single person. Why? Because there is no point. You'll mess up your project by changing the battle system.

You're not going to get everyone's approval, so it's best not to frankenstein your project to suit 90% of people's views on stories vs character development.

[Shaddow]

While I can agree with the theory of story over game-play in rpgs, I believe finding a unique combat system can make or break a game. Skyrim for example, it's a beautiful game with full interactions and a huge world. I love the game, but I can only play it every so often because the combat system is so bad, it drives me away. I always come back for the game itself, but only for a short time, if that makes sense.

Now as far as a different style of combat system. I once started to make a full metal alchemist MUD (Text based mmo for those who don't know), and I had, what I considered, a rather unique system. I did not have stats, all I had was skills that went up to 100% and down to 5%. You started knowing only a few basic skills, such as punch and kick. The more you used a skill the more it went up. You could learn any skill and the requirements to use some skills was based on how high a previous skill was.

For example to learn uppercut you had to know punch at above 50%. If you started ignoring punch and only using uppercut, you would find that when you let punch deteriorate to below 50% you could no longer use uppercut. The other side of this, of course, was that skills were set on a time system and would slowly lose training over time. This meant that you could not know every skill in the game and keep up with them, it made you choose a path and play it, yet had no classes to confine you.

Stats worked much the same way, you could go to a dojo or library and train them all day, but they also deteriorated over time, so you had to focus on if you wanted stats or skills and which were the most important. Another aspect I put in was catalysts. This was based on the alchemy system and needing chalk to write symbols or rare items that had the symbols embedded. You also needed something to start the skill, such as flint for making a spark for fire alchemy.

I apologize, this sort of drug on, but you asked for my idea on a new type of system. I sadly never got this game completed, but I would like to see someone with enough skill to put this in a game someday, even if it's just a standard rpg.

I realize there may be some confusion about stats as I said I did not have them. I mean I did not have them in the traditional sense, they were basically skills that were passive. Another thing I forgot to mention is not everything was combat based either, material gathering as well as crafting was used on the same system, so you could focus on being a non-combatant as well.

This post has been edited by shaddowval: Mar 23 2012, 08:05 AM

[IIomenII]

Very interesting ideas here....thought I'd throw another into the mix. This style would require a very intelligent AI system for it is a complicated form of "Hate" or "aggro" the enemies use. The enemies would actually base their tactics around what the players team setup is based on certain factors.

*Fear - The more intimidating the character looked the less likely "Certain" enemies would target them. They would go for a weaker looking opponent. While "Certain" other enemies would target the scariest looking target first due to honor or whatever....

*Intelligence- If your fighting say a skilled opponent, its going to fight you tactically...like target your team in certain order....healer...damage dealers....than the tank.....

I personally don't like the tank healer damage dealer setups that pretty much are the basics of MMORPGS....rather have it that each player has to fight..and keep THEMSELVES alive and only really rely on their team mates to even the odds..
Examples

Warrior has to block attacks with their shield or parry with their 2handed weapons and use their heavy armor to negate attacks...trade off is a steady damage output with now self "Heal" ability and has a timer on how long they can last in a single fight.

Mage has to keep distance between the enemy and themselves....say cast a volley of spells at their target and once their target gets in their face...they turn invisible or something...and have to locate themselves to their next safety spot.....burst damage....low health...limited magic points.....good evasive spells.

Rouge has medium armor....low damage output....but really high evasion...great at fighting other melee types...bad at fighting mages.

the usual right? this were just off the top of my head...sure they could be better fleshed out.

Gaining experience points and "leveling up" would be fun if you could go about it in personalized ways....lets say its quest based...and your quest was to bring back a necklace that the bandit king stole from a lord....thats it

once at the bandit king's hide out you could....

A.) Sneak in undetected....and just steal it from the bandit king and return and get the EXP... longer method of obtaining things but safe

B.) Approach the bandit king and negotiate obtaining the necklace from him either through Trade or intimidation
-Bring the bandit king a dragon skull and he will trade it for the necklace
-"Gimme the necklace or I'll skin you alive.....if your intimidating enough he just might give it too you....or just straight up fight you.

C.) Break down the front door and slaughter everyone till you get the necklace.

[rewells]

Good ideas, IIomen. The good ol' kill enemies = get exp = gain level = gain slight improvements to all stats is tried and true and embedded in RM's DNA, but I think relying on it too much can limit creativity. Giving stat bonuses based on equipment and items is basically what most action/rpg's like Zelda do (Link gets more HP by finding heart pieces and finds stronger weapons that also grant him access to knew areas).

Changing enemy AI based on party set-up is also an interesting idea. Usually in RPGs the player has to pick the right party to execute the best strategy in battle, but in the system you describe it sounds like every party set-up would require it's own strategy since the enemy 's strategy will change. If that kind of intricacy could be designed well, that could intentionally be a lot of fun.

I especially agree that games should offer optional quests throughout the game to improve character stats. I dislike FF12's combat and license system, but I do appreciate the availability of quests, so that if I have to level grind, I can at least have some objective and an optional area to explore, and usually you get an item or equipment out of it too.

I really wish more RPGs had difficulty settings so the player could adjust things like growth curves and enemy encounters to their liking. Sometimes I just want to breeze through a game I've already beaten without having to grind, and sometimes I want to challenge my patience. Does anyone know of any good RPGs with difficulty settings?

Very interesting ideas here....thought I'd throw another into the mix. This style would require a very intelligent AI system for it is a complicated form of "Hate" or "aggro" the enemies use. The enemies would actually base their tactics around what the players team setup is based on certain factors.

*Fear - The more intimidating the character looked the less likely "Certain" enemies would target them. They would go for a weaker looking opponent. While "Certain" other enemies would target the scariest looking target first due to honor or whatever....

*Intelligence- If your fighting say a skilled opponent, its going to fight you tactically...like target your team in certain order....healer...damage dealers....than the tank.....

I personally don't like the tank healer damage dealer setups that pretty much are the basics of MMORPGS....rather have it that each player has to fight..and keep THEMSELVES alive and only really rely on their team mates to even the odds..
Examples

Warrior has to block attacks with their shield or parry with their 2handed weapons and use their heavy armor to negate attacks...trade off is a steady damage output with now self "Heal" ability and has a timer on how long they can last in a single fight.

Mage has to keep distance between the enemy and themselves....say cast a volley of spells at their target and once their target gets in their face...they turn invisible or something...and have to locate themselves to their next safety spot.....burst damage....low health...limited magic points.....good evasive spells.

Rouge has medium armor....low damage output....but really high evasion...great at fighting other melee types...bad at fighting mages.

the usual right? this were just off the top of my head...sure they could be better fleshed out.

Gaining experience points and "leveling up" would be fun if you could go about it in personalized ways....lets say its quest based...and your quest was to bring back a necklace that the bandit king stole from a lord....thats it

once at the bandit king's hide out you could....

A.) Sneak in undetected....and just steal it from the bandit king and return and get the EXP... longer method of obtaining things but safe

B.) Approach the bandit king and negotiate obtaining the necklace from him either through Trade or intimidation
-Bring the bandit king a dragon skull and he will trade it for the necklace
-"Gimme the necklace or I'll skin you alive.....if your intimidating enough he just might give it too you....or just straight up fight you.

C.) Break down the front door and slaughter everyone till you get the necklace.