Bad Endings Options

[Jens of Zanicuud]

Some times ago I was working on a project (now dismissed - or rather, waiting for my current project completion) which was designed to end badly, with the death of every character in the party (this was however related to the plot).

I've seen quite a few RPG with a default (i.e. not optional) bad ending (FFXIII-2 / KH Birth by Sleep - if we can call their ending bad), so I wonder if it's a taboo to make your game ends in a tragic way, or simply players prefer an happy ending to every game they play, since they are playing not to think to their problems...

What's your point about it?
Would you play/create a game with a tragic ending (not optional - main ending)?

If so, why?

That's a feature I've never found in a RPG Maker game (excluding maybe survival horror...)
If you know some link 'bout that, I'd be pleased to give it a look.

Maybe my project will resurrect, who knows?

Jens

[rewells]

I like feeling accomplished after beating a game. Saving the world is a great feeling, even if it's only make-believe! I cannot think of any commercial RPGs with tragic endings off the top of my head, though the RM game Finding Eden has a pretty tragic ending from what I remember. In that case the tragicness of the ending didn't take away from the game because it's a short, plot-driven game. Most of the God of War games and Zone of the Enders (not RPGs) have pretty tragic endings. With every tragic ending, whether be in game, book or film (but especially in a game), I think there always needs to be some pay-off. If the hero dies, the villian has to die harder.

One thing I DESPISE is when games tease the death of the hero at the end, only for them to ride by on a chocobo and everyone is like "Oh look! They're not dead! Hurray!" To me it just seems like a cheap attempt at suspense for like 5 minutes.

[Jens of Zanicuud]

I've played Finding Eden and remember the ending. I think tat was... touching more than tragic.
Anyway, what I'm going to say it's a truly tragic ending, in which the main characters ACTUALLY dies and there's no scene in which you saw him/her again riding a Chocobo or whatever.

I'll provide some more details. The project I dismissed something like two years ago was called Countdown to the End and was set on Earth's last seven days, before the Sun become a red giant star. Whoever could leave the planet did it, leaving about two billion people on the Earth, condemning them to a sure death. You should have taken control of one nameless character, following a flebile hope tied to the existence of a spaceship, the Ark, which should be fast enough to leave the planet in time. During this search, you should have encountered many characters and, according to your choices, take some of them in the party. However, to sum up, in the end you should have reached a old hangar with the Ark inside, discovering it has no engines and therefore it can't fly. It contains a sort of church, since it is not a spaceship at all, a church were you should have found old books and documents, forgotten by time, which talk about the immortality of souls and the Other World Beyond The Death. After a scene of discourage, when one of the party members commits sucide and other one fall to the floor crying and weeping, the main character decides to believe to these documents, since there's no other way out, and smiles looking at the sun, which is gradually becoming brighter.

This was, in sum, the plot of the project I left before being struck by Tryadine Effect idea. I wondered how would have a player received such ending, since there's no evidence that those books were right and the one sure thing is the player is gonna die.

Do you think an ending like that could be too much rude, for a player who employed hours and hours to reach the game's end?
Or would you appreciate something like that?

I'd like to know sincere opinions about the whole topic.
Bad ending theory is something that fascinated me...

Jens

This post has been edited by Jens of Zanicuud: Jul 28 2012, 03:37 AM

[MEands]

The frustration of having the characters die at the end is the fact that through the entire game you've been working so hard not to have the characters die. It just kinda makes you wonder if it was really worth it.

[MagitekElite]

I agree with the others.

However, endings with some tragedies isn't so bad. Like one or two characters dying to help others, you know, stuff like that. But if everyone dies and the world crumbles at the end of the game, I feel like playing the game was not worth it; going through the boss battles, saving characters sometimes, etc etc, what was the point? I invested time in it, in the characters, in the story and in the world for everything to be lost?

[rewells]

After a scene of discourage, when one of the party members commits sucide and other one fall to the floor crying and weeping, the main character decides to believe to these documents, since there's no other way out, and smiles looking at the sun, which is gradually becoming brighter.

The whole story sounds great. I'd play it (even though I know how it ends ) Seems like games follow different rules than other art because of their interactive nature. I think that plot could work for a game, however, since it sounds like the major theme is the inevitability of death and destruction. If the characters were well developed and got some joy out of the journey itself, I wouldn't feel cheated. Also, a playable character committing suicide has interesting psychological implications for a game; I'd take that a lot harder than if it happened in a film or book. My point about death teasers not working is that they always just seem tacked on with no greater impact on the overall story.

The image of a main character staring into the sun after coming to terms with the fact that their mission has failed and that they are going to die is actually an old literary trope: See the end of Deuteronomy from The Bible and The Epic of Gilgamesh. The "moral" (ugh, I hate that word. Someone should write a post on themes v.s. morals) of these stories is that life should be more than a simple struggle against death - you should enjoy the journey and accomplish great things in life to obtain immortality in the minds of future generations.

Let me muse for a second on the other games I mentioned and why their endings "work", in my opinion.

[Show/Hide] Zone of The Enders spoiler

The plot: A Mars Colony in the future is attacked and a young boy escapes from destruction by finding a fighter robot with high A.I. who introduces herself as Jehuty. The Galactic Federation (or whatever) contacts the boy and asks him the bring the robot to their base. Having nothing better to do with his family dead and all, the boy and Jehuty battle their way across the Universe. The boy and Juhety develop a close relationship, despite Jehuty's inability to understand why the boy is sad about death. The boy, having lost everything, ironically finds comfort in talking with a machine that is designed to kill, but Jehuty seems to develop empathy through talking to him.

The Ending: They arrive at the base and are greeted as heros. In their last conversation, Jehuty dryly reveals that her next mission (which was the whole point of getting her back to base) is a self-destruct/suicide mission. Ouch! So you save the boy, only to lose all he has left. The ending drives home the limits of A.I. and the perplexing question of why people fight so hard to live knowing that they are going to die.

[Show/Hide] God of War series spoiler

The first game begins with a bad ending - the main character jumps off a cliff! The plot of the first game is told through flashbacks, so the player knows what is going to happen, and the fun is learning how he got there.

This five-game series (so far) tells the story of Kratos, a Spartan warrior who sells his soul to the God of War, Ares, to save his village from destruction. He succeeds, only to turn into a war-hungry killing machine. In one of his raids, Ares tricks Kratos into killing his daughter and his wife. Kratos goes nuts, swears off Ares, and dedicates his life to serving Athena, who promises to help him get revenge on Ares and be forgiven for his sins. He finally fights and kills Ares, only to realize that he feels no better and the memories of his past still haunt him. So he climbs Mt. Olympus and hurls himself off of it - only for Athena to drag him back up and tell him that Ares needs a replacement, and she has chosen him to be the new God of War. Themes: the pointlessness of revenge, the horrors of war, the importance of learning to forgive yourself rather than depending on forgiveness from others; the unfairness of the gods and life in general.

So that's the first God of War...I won't even spoil the rest of the series because the plot is so good you should just play them, or at least watch all of the cutscenes from each game (they're all on Youtube). Despite Kratos being a ruthless killer who tears the head off of anyone he sees, I really became attached to him, and his every action makes sense in the context of the story. I think these games are the best written I ever ever played and would recommend them to everyone.

[Show/Hide] And finally, Shin Megami: Devil Survivor spoilers

Sounds similar to the beginning of your plot, in that the characters know the world is going to end within a week. The main character has a special power to see people's "death clock", which shows how many days they are going to live, and many people's are less than 7. He and the friends he meets during the chaos find that their actions are able to change people's death-clock, and they try to save the people who are going to die that day and eventually try to save the world. There are multiple endings depending on the player's choices throughout the game (in true Shin Megami style), and the default one is the "everyone dies" ending. Honestly I was pretty pissed when I got that ending first time around, but knowing that it was my fault for my actions, I could only blame myself and try again to save the world. Themes: the perseverance to survive even when you know death is inevitable; the power of tragedy to bring people together; the importance of seemingly small decisions

So again, I emphasize, if an "everyone dies" ending adds relevance to the theme, that can be really powerful. But if it's just thrown in for the sake of surprise, it pisses me off.

[Jonnie19]

I am going to start this reply by mentioning something that you should never do if a character dies...and for this I reference, once again, Final Fantasy X and X-2

[Show/Hide] Ending Spoilers!

As fans of X and X-2 know, the whiny bitc...I mean Tidus (the main character from X) dies saving Yuna...*Cheers*, now in one of the plotlines of X-2 is to find out about a certain sphere that sounds just like his whiny annoying stupid voice...The game continues blah blah but I digress, If you manage to get 100% completion you get the option of bringing Tidus back to life which is what ruins X-2.The knowledge that 100% completion gives you the opportunity to destroy a great ending...It just ruins the entire game. So if a character is going to die. MAKE SURE IT STAYS DEAD!

I love a bad ending...as long as it's done right. You need to literally bring people to tears. Once again a brilliant example is Finding Eden...I have shamelessly played the game so many times and every time I am devastated when

[Show/Hide] Finding Eden Spoilers

One of the main characters gives his life to save her.

Now normally I would harp on about how Voice Actors can bring the characters to life...however in this case the way that FE was written was so amazing, that you could hear the characters, even though it was a 30min microgame. The development that went into it must have been outstanding due to the amount the characters were developed throughout the game. The close-ness of the main characters, and then the disaster that occurs. (read spoiler...)

But once again I digress...The point is, if you want to kill the main characters, or cause a disaster that basically renders the entire game pointless then be very smart. Develop your characters to the point of exhaustion; that way when they die. You devastate the player, but it's good devistation because they know that they have done something that helps the world that they have come to love, which is of course the world of your game

TL;DR: Go ahead and do it, there is too many happy go lucky stories around. But remember to develop your characters and world so much that the player can become eveloped in the world...so much that WHEN it happens. The player can really feel it. and do not under any circumstances bring the player back to life, in a equal...or later in the game. It's just stupid. Plain and simple stupid.

[Jens of Zanicuud]

So again, I emphasize, if an "everyone dies" ending adds relevance to the theme, that can be really powerful. But if it's just thrown in for the sake of surprise, it pisses me off.

'Jonnie19[/b]' date='Jul 29 2012, 09:05 AM' post='565154']
TL;DR: Go ahead and do it, there is too many happy go lucky stories around. But remember to develop your characters and world so much that the player can become eveloped in the world...so much that WHEN it happens. The player can really feel it. and do not under any circumstances bring the player back to life, in a equal...or later in the game. It's just stupid. Plain and simple stupid.

I agree with both of you. I'd have never planned to revive (urgh!) a character (it's something I actually HATE too! A dead character is dead.)
Again, I didn't intend to use a surprise for surprise's sake. I just thought to give some hints during the game, hidden here and there, something mostly ignored by the characters as pointless news and facts, which, if read in a different way, could give the true key to understand the game.

I found another example ofgame filled with bad endings: 999, Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors. There's only one "happy" ending.
However, there are something like three "you die" bad endings, one "everyone dies" bad ending, one "some character die ending" and a "to be continued" fake ending.
Yes, I felt frustrated while finding the "you die" and the "everyone dies" endings, but this made me play that game another time to obtain the true ending.

Maybe I could do something similar...
Thanks again for your comments, I really appreciated every replies.
Thanks MagitekElite and MEands too. You are right 'bout that, but I'll probably take that idea back and develop a short game when I complete Tryadine Effect.

Jens

This post has been edited by Jens of Zanicuud: Jul 29 2012, 04:02 AM

[Shaddow]

I realize that there are a lot of answers to this already, and most say that once a character is dead they should stay dead. While I agree with that for the most part, there are games and stories where the character is brought back to life through valiant effort and dedication by his loved ones. A prime example is Chrono Trigger.

[Show/Hide] Old School Spoiler

Crono, the main character, dies about halfway through the game to save everyone's life. As the rest of the group struggles with his death, you find an option to go back in time and save him. This requires a lot of effort on your part and secrets to be found. I also say option, because you can beat the game without ever reviving him, which changes the ending and gives for a very sad ending.

I say that this is just as powerful as having a character stay dead, and maybe more so. Who in life has lost a loved one and had not wished to see them 'just one more time'. It's tragic, and tragedy is hard to deal with. So, while this is not really within the topic of the conversation, I felt like I had to bring my own counterpoint to all this discussion.

[rewells]

I realize that there are a lot of answers to this already, and most say that once a character is dead they should stay dead. While I agree with that for the most part, there are games and stories where the character is brought back to life through valiant effort and dedication by his loved ones. A prime example is Chrono Trigger.

I agree. Chrono Trigger has I think 14 endings? It's one of my favorite games because of the tightness of its story. I think it only works because the whole game is about time travel though, and making it optional enforces the theme of the power of small decisions. Also:

[Show/Hide] Chrono Trigger Spoilers

I'd argue that it works because Chrono is a mute, blank-slate type character. He represents the player, and he has no character development. I never felt attached to him as much as the other awesome characters, so my enticement to get him back was because he's the most powerful in battle, and I wanted to see all the endings. Again, I totally agree that Chrono Trigger handles the situation well - thanks for pointing it out because I hadn't thought about that.

[amerk]

To Jonnie: Why couldn't Tidus have been modeled after Shuyin? Eh, the world may never know.

I'm a sucker for sappy, happy, Hollywood endings, but I also enjoy a decent tragedy when done right. When it comes to gaming, it's a good idea to have a proper balance. I want to feel like I accomplished something, even if at great cost, otherwise I wonder what was the point.

As for multiple endings, I don't like to refer to them as "The Good Ending" and "The Bad". What may be good in my mind may not be to somebody else and, unless one is more canonical than another, both should be written as a good ending, even if one is more tragic.

The thing to avoid, probably, is a complete and utter mess where nothing is resolved. While this may work on a Shakespearean level, for many gamers it will just feel empty and incomplete. That's not to say you need the perfect happy love story where everybody lives, either, but finding that balance between resolution and incompletion is vital.

[obsorber]

Yes a bad ending is disappointing for the player after all their work in the game. A good alternative is to add optional endings good and bad so that way they can play it again and get the good ending they worked hard for. Also another thing to do is make the game end in several ways which aren't really true endings just cut-scenes that show them die when they fail at various parts in the game. This can be really cool as it shows evil conquering good had good not succeeded in the battle. It also makes the player want to get the good ending more after being beaten by evil so many times seeing the same depressing cries and brutal crushing of the heroes they've been drawn into. I liked this effect in resident evil 5 when Chris would or Sheeba or whatever that girls name was would get owned and ripped apart by the mutants. Made me think what, awesomely cool when she'd shout out "Chris!" and he was screaming in agony. This has an effect on the player and keeps them in tuned wanting to play more.

This post has been edited by obsorber: Jul 31 2012, 04:50 AM

[KD648]

I wouldn't mind a tragic ending to a videogame, but I feel like there's two keys to making that kind of ending work.

1) There has to be at least a glimmer of hope or something good that happened because of the players actions. For example, if your game is about the end of the world, then maybe the ending involves the main characters pursuing/fulfilling their final wishes before they die. Tragic, but there's still something worthwhile about going through the painful experience. It doesn't even have to be a "happy" ending, as long as there's SOMETHING good that comes out of it.

2) Especially in videogames, the audience (player) generally goes in with the expectation that there will be a happy ending, or at least not a bad ending. In movies and books, audiences have now accepted tragic endings because enough books and movies have gone against the norm that readers and viewers will at least accept it as a possibility. However, the massive majority of mainstream AAA games have stuck to happy endings, so the average player will never even ponder the possibility of a "bad" ending. I feel like that means, for video games, we need to at least warn the players ahead of time that the ending may be "bad". Unless your goal is to truly shock your player (which is fine), I recommend that you hint at the fact that the ending will be bad beforehand. An example of this is Halo: Reach. Everyone dies, but you know it within the opening seconds of the game. That way when each character death comes, the players are dealing with the emotion of the scene, rather than the shock.

And now, to be a truly pretentious douche about it, I'm going to tell you what I did in MY game.

[Show/Hide] My Game

In my game there's multiple endings, and in two of the eight endings every single character dies. However, the plot is that the world that everyone is living in turns anyone who "causes" someone else's suicide into a monster. The endings where everyone dies involve destroying the world in order to free the people who turned into monsters. It's true that everyone dies, but the main characters die because they got what they want, and the characters spend the last 1/3rd of the game coming to terms with their own death through character focused side-quests and conversations.

"Bad" endings are still good. Romeo and Juliet wouldn't be a classic if everyone lived and there was a wedding at the end. Bad endings just require a lot of care so that the player doesn't feel they wasted their time.

This post has been edited by KD648: Jul 31 2012, 07:16 AM

[Jens of Zanicuud]

I'm generally not for mainstream games, but you guys are right.
There should be some hint of the ending and give the player some reward, like you said.
A bad or tragic ending could be really disappointing, but I prefer a tragic ending which has a minimum of significance to a happy ending which actually is set just to end the story in a good way.

Happy ending is the general rule, but I think game canons can and must be overcome.
Putting something new everytime, breaking the rules... well, it a sort of victory of fantasy on the mass produced games.

I love this forum, since there are lots of different opinions and many people who are tired of emulating mainstream games and instead create their own, unique world.

I feel I'll keep on my way, but I'll consider this discussion and the points emerged in these posts.
Now I know how to do that,

Thanks everyone.

Jens

[Jonnie19]

To Jonnie: Why couldn't Tidus have been modeled after Shuyin? Eh, the world may never know.

Because he's much better as a whiny bitch..."Ah..ha ha ha ha..." I WANT TO PUNCH HIS FACE IN, He could at LEAST fake laugh like less of a dickhead.

The thing to avoid, probably, is a complete and utter mess where nothing is resolved. While this may work on a Shakespearean level, for many gamers it will just feel empty and incomplete. That's not to say you need the perfect happy love story where everybody lives, either, but finding that balance between resolution and incompletion is vital.

That is something you've gotta remember. Make sure the death makes sense. You cannot just kill the character for a shock factor. Kill the for a reason...That doesn't necessarily mean give an obvious reason...but you've gotta give some "clue" to why they die!

[Stalin the stall...]

Main ending must never be bad. Bittersweet, maybe, but not bad. Imagine this:

Player finally grinded his way to the final boss. After hours of playing he got heavily invested with plot, defeated countless enemies and faced great satisfaction, because he knows: he got to the end. He will beat Big Bad and save the world!
But in the ending all his party dies.
"WHAT THE F*UCK IS THAT SH*T?!" screaming player "I WASTED TWENTY HOURS OF MY LIFE FOR THIS? F*CK YOU, AUTOR, F*CK YOU!"

Allow me to show you the song on what player reeeeaaaallly wants.

So, that's my opinion on downer endings. I hate these VEEERY much.

[TheCableGuy]

Romeo and Juliet is probably the best known Ending where almost the whole cast of the Main people in the story die. That's one story that I both Loved and Hated because of how well it was told.

I don't much care for Bad end games that have pointless deaths (if any death could truly have a point) much if the Story escalates to the point that death is the only possible outcome or Best possible outcome, it could work if the Story is well written. This could work in books and movies but yeah, like it's been said, it would be hard for something for a player to handle...

And pray that anyone who does play it does not have any personal demons of their own; that may take such a game a little bit personal.

[Saul95]

I also can't stand the bad endings, but the point is that an ending is perceived by us based on our feelings.

I know many of my friends who hate the positive end because the world according to them and "ugly and bad."

To me, however, the positive end will not displease any because basically I don't care a realistic storyline will make the cynic who wants to be a bad man.

There is also to say one thing though, the final, often must be consistent with the same plot and try not to force the events at your own convenience, but to get to those that are the obvious consequences of actions.

Let me explain: If one tells the story of a villainous character, nihilist who rapes the female character and betray everyone for their own gain and eventually even it redeems for his actions ...
It is not possible that in the end, this character has a happy ending where his friends "betrayed" consider still a great friend, or his lady love him despite everything.

The ending should take this into account.

[Stalin the stall...]

Bad ending CAN be acceptable in prequels, where all characters are doomed by canons. And dramas. Otherwise they are pretty frustrating

[amerk]

Romeo and Juliet is probably the best known Ending where almost the whole cast of the Main people in the story die. That's one story that I both Loved and Hated because of how well it was told.

I don't much care for Bad end games that have pointless deaths (if any death could truly have a point) much if the Story escalates to the point that death is the only possible outcome or Best possible outcome, it could work if the Story is well written. This could work in books and movies but yeah, like it's been said, it would be hard for something for a player to handle...

And pray that anyone who does play it does not have any personal demons of their own; that may take such a game a little bit personal.

I can't tell you how many times I watch an adaption of Romeo and Juliet, and even knowing what will happen, hoping for a completely different outcome.

Just to clarify, by bad ending we are referring to a sad ending. Even a sad ending can have a lot of impact if done right, but there is a big difference in bad/sad endings in the movies, and a bad/sad ending in a game. When it comes to games you need to ensure the player is going to feel satisfied, primarily because a gamer is more engaged and has more invested than just an observer.

My thought, the player's goal should be achieved, but the way the goal was expected to be received can be altered. For example, the player may have to destroy a superbeing. The main character responsible for this could be a shallow unlikable person at first, but slowly learns what it means to have compassion. He falls in love with one of the other characters. The player assumes the hero will combat the evil and wind up with the other playable character, as typically happens in a lot of other games. However, unexpectedly, the hero realizes that there is no time to stop the evil force, or they are not powerful enough. He realizes that he can sacrifice himself and that will destroy the evil creature. His love interest is upset, and so are the players, but it's also very touching at the same time.