Save Points, A desperate plea Options

[Sailerius]

If I'm playing an RPG and it has save points, I will probably flat out stop playing.

What if I'm playing the game on the go and I need to stop playing suddenly? I mostly play games on my commute now and I just can't play games with save points because they never correspond with when I reach my stop. Then I have to reload my last save and lose a bunch of progress.

If your game balance requires save points, you're bad at game balance. There's no reason to artificially constrain the players and annoy them just because you think it makes the game more fun. Respect your players' time.

[ZarroTsu]

If I'm playing an RPG and it has save points, I will probably flat out stop playing.

And if the save point has an alternative use, such as party arrangement, time-travel, or dimension hopping?

[Shaddow]

If I'm playing an RPG and it has save points, I will probably flat out stop playing.

And if the save point has an alternative use, such as party arrangement, time-travel, or dimension hopping?

Does it really require a save point to have those? You can have points for each of those. For example in my Blessed Eternia game, I allow saving anywhere, doesn't mean the game is any easier, but I use a skill point system to buy your skills how you want. I also allow you to refund those skill points, but only in towns. I could have included them in a save point, but I did not need to.

[ZarroTsu]

Does it really require a save point to have those?

Not necessarily, but making it an "any-time" situation can just as well break the game. Or could be a plot point. Gotta build the game around it, and not vice-versa.

Let's say you could use the ability at any time, then what's to stop your character from simply avoiding "game overs" altogether? If you as a game maker withheld that ability at totally random times, such as combat or events, then you immediately drain consistency from this ability. Leaving it to save-points makes your job easier in this situation, as you wouldn't have to (as much) plan every event around it (unless it happens to take place in the same room as a save-point, in which case...??)

While an any-time save+time/dimension mechanic would be wonderful and all, I wonder if it would be handled correctly. If done right, the enemy would definitely start to pose a serious threat when they actually begin to (somehow) anticipate your abilities and counteract them toward the mid-point of the game. SUDDENLY, YOU AREN'T AS SAFE.

[Shaddow]

Please be sure to read my entire post. I never said it was an anytime mechanic. What I said was you can have those in specific points and restricted areas only without the need for save points.

[amerk]

I don't think there's any right or wrong answer to this. Being able to save anywhere is a convenience to the player, but not having it is not a game breaker for me. Basically, if I find I don't have time to invest in a game because of time constraints, I just won't play it until I do have time (if I do have time), and choose something that will fit my needs a lot more.

[Clord]

I don't think there's any right or wrong answer to this. Being able to save anywhere is a convenience to the player, but not having it is not a game breaker for me. Basically, if I find I don't have time to invest in a game because of time constraints, I just won't play it until I do have time (if I do have time), and choose something that will fit my needs a lot more.

"Save & Quit" feature is handy solution for that. Then save gets wiped when a player wants to continue. It is good solution for games with the save points.

This post has been edited by Clord: Nov 3 2012, 11:06 AM

[phxDansuke]

The ability to save anywhere is always something good. But if you need a save point, that's not actually bad for me unless it is well placed.

An example of save points done wrong in my opinion is Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII; I freaking love that game, but losing on a boss battle is terrible, specially on the final boss, where the last save point is right before a 5 minute cutscene. Every time I lose, I have to go through that cutscene AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN. It almost made me never touch that game again.

Properly place Save Points are a neccesity for games without auto-save. A save point during the beginning, middle and end of a dungeon should make the cut. My advice is to have a save point near the player every 10 minutes. Depending on how's your game, that could actually make you miss out important parts of the game. For example, in my game, you have save points basically anywhere, but every time you use a tent, your party actually sleeps and a day passes. And you can miss out important quests if you save way too much, because, from what I've read, people hate save points because of bad implementation. If you can get that out of the way, you'll have no problem.

[LockeZ]

If your game balance requires save points, you're bad at game balance. There's no reason to artificially constrain the players and annoy them just because you think it makes the game more fun. Respect your players' time.

This is kind of dumb! I can think of tons and tons and tons of games (like, almost 99% of games) that would be flat out ruined if you could save anywhere, and I think anyone who really can't play long enough to get from one save point to the next should play a different game.

Let me expand on that second point. Even if you can technically save anywhere, your game is going to be designed with play periods in mind. One dungeon or one section of a long dungeon is usually a play period in most JRPGs. One stage is a play period in an action or platformer game. In World of Warcraft, when levelling or doing daily quests, quests are grouped so that you finish a series of them in one outpost and then get told to move on to the next outpost; this is a play session. In Fallout 3, one quest is probably a play session. In a tactical RPG, a play session is probably one battle. In Etrian Odyssey, one play session lasts from when you enter the labyrinth until when you run out of resources and recall back to town. This is a coherent vignette in the game that, when played from start to finish, creates a single experience. If the player divides it up, he won't really enjoy it to the same degree. It won't be a complete experience.

Sometimes, crazy shit happens and you have to put the game down. I get that. But you should EXPECT to play long enough to play through one play session. You should go in with the plan of playing until the point where the game says, "OK, mission complete. Take a breather." In the once-every-few-games case that something crazy happens and you have to quit early, it's arguably nice if the game lets you do so, but I don't see why OH MY GOD I HAVE TO GO BACK TO SIX MINUTES AGO is so horrible. Those six minutes you're redoing help set up the rest of the play arc and make it coherent.

[markchapman10]

Save anywhere with save point reminders (to remind to save before an upcoming boss for example) is ideal with a lot of players. I don't really care, either way, but if you use save points, add them aplenty and allow saving anywhere on the world map.

I'm currently playing a game with save points, and it doesn't allow you to save on the world map.

Another option, save anywhere on the world map or in safe zones, but for dungeons, let the player buy save points. The cost can be relatively expensive, say around 1000 G for a standard save, and get expensive the more features it offers:

1. Standard Save = 1000 G
2. Save with 25% Party Restoration = 1500 G
3. Save with 50% Party Restoration = 2500 G
4. Save with full Party Restoration = 4000 G

This allows the players to be selective on how many save points to buy and use, but doesn't hinder from doing so if they have the resources.

to be honest, that is one thing I have never tried... I like that idea.

[amerk]

I haven't tried it either, yet, but I've been contemplating it as a possibility. You could even give the saves names of items (similar to Final Fantasy):

1. Standard Save = 1000 G is called Sleeping Bags
2. Save with 25% Party Restoration = 1500 G is called tent
3. Hut
4. Cabin or House
5. etc

The more I think about it, the more I think I'm going to try it out... after the game I'm working on.

[vvalkingman]

What about not breaking immersion by autosaving for the player whenever they accomplish something of significance like defeating a boss, starting a questline, finding a town, etc...Deux Ex Human Revolution does that AND it gives you the option to save whenever you want as well just like the default saving system of rpg maker. Idk about you guys, by immersion is hard to pull off in rpg maker games(imo) but if you can, there isn't anything worse than breaking that immersion by having a floating crystal or a textbox pop up "would you like to save?" We want them in our "world", saving should be handled by us in the background. Thoughts?

[Mutation]

My simple thought is, if it doesn't have save points, it should just have a non-invasive way to remind you. Like having the characters stop and chat a second. A simple 'I think Captain Evil is just beyond this door, Mr. Main Character' is good enough. Although, maybe with better writing.

Otherwise, save points should be related plotwise. Like the black cat in Witch's House.

Autosaves are cool too, but sometimes I get annoyed when a game autosaves just after I did something I want to reverse.

This could probably be thrown out the window if the game in question is a fourth-wall breaking humor based game.

This post has been edited by Mutation: Jan 24 2013, 07:56 PM

[SilverPhoenixWF]

My idea of save points was that there were ones you could take with you and ones found in specific locations. I don't exactly know how to incorporate them into the story, though. Here's what I had in mind:

The stationary save points are blue crystals that record your data for you, and the mobile save points are purchasable crystals that only have one use but can be used anywhere. I can't think of any good way to incorporate them into the story without them seeming out of place. (Then again, I did have one iteration of my game where you got a freaking CALCULATOR. In a medieval setting. Go me.) I was also thinking (as of now) of maybe adding a crystal specifically for teleportation, and one for refilling your HP and MP. I want to give the normal save points a secondary function, but... I can't think of one that would make sense and/or be original.

*Note: The italics are sarcasm. Don't take it seriously.

This post has been edited by SilverPhoenixWF: Jun 12 2013, 11:04 AM

[Waxius]

In the game I'm working on:

You can save anywhere in Town.
You can save anywhere on the World Map.
You can even save anywhere inside the dungeons themselves. (where MOST of the game takes place)
The only time you CANNOT save... is when you are in the thick of battle.

One of the objections to saving everywhere... was that it can break up or divide the plot.

Lets say that you talk so an NPC... who says "Do A, B, C, and D".. You go and do A and B, but then you save the game because you ran out of time. Now.. you're back to play and you might have forgotten what you were supposed to do.

A few solutions:
1.Make sure your NPCs are scripted properly to be able to tell you... You did A and B... but you still need to do C and D.
2.Have an item, menu option, or some other mechanism to remind you what your "current mission" is or where you need to go.
3.Have a quick narrative when you return from your save... The old NES game "Strider" did this pretty well. It summarized what's happened so far, and brought you up to speed to where you were at. If you played the game straight through beginning to end... you never saw any of these narratives.
4.If your party has regular dialogue... have your party members have a quick conversation upon returning from save. For example... if my party has 4 members and the current mission is to rescue lost children in the woods. Then show all four of your party members on screen... then have a quick dialogue.
Male Fighter could say: "Let's go... we have to find those kids..."
Female Fighter says:"They must be so scared..."
Male Wizard says: "We don't have much time..."
Male Ninja says: "..."

This accomplishes several things. It reminds you of who is in your party (just in case it changes often), it gives you an opportunity to display some character personalities, and it brings you back into the story.

[TheCableGuy]

Just a couple thoughts saving:

1. A well developed game sets up an play experience that makes the player NOT want to have to bother saving every min.
I play a lot of games that I feel as every stepping stone (not every Mile stone) is, in itself, a major victory and pivotal moment in the game.
As much as I love these games, they always make me WANT to save every few minutes in fear of losing progress.

A game should be so Immersive that the Player shouldn't have to think about having to save and, in turn, the game shouldn't be set up to punish the player for not remembering to save either.

2. Well developed games that use Save Points should (at the very least) allow the player to envision the end result PRIOR to the save.
Platform games are perfect examples of allowing players to envision what they will be facing prior to, during, and after the save.
When starting a level on a Platform game, regardless of how easy or difficult the Level may be, the player has an idea of what they'll be facing throughout the level. And then, once they reach the end of the Level, the can save before progressing to the next level.
If the Player is about to face the boss, (and the player KNOWS this) that's the perfect place for a a save point.

But I've played games that had "Surprise Boss fights" after 15-20 mins of regular gameplay with no warning and no save points beforehand.
I don't know about you but, when I'm in the thick of battle with a Boss, I shouldn't have to be worrying about when the last time I saved was.

[atlus]

In my game, I have save spots yes. But with a catch. You need a ceartain amount of SAVE POINTS Or SP. You can use 3 SP to save and 5 SP to save AND heal and 7SP to completely heal and save. If you dont have enough SP you wont be able to save so you should be cautios of saving left and right. You get SP after every battle and to be fair I may implement a system that after every so and so steps you gain one SP.Now in a town I am going to do somthing different. To save in a town or city you have to go to a inn and save. Think of phantasy star 3. However one thing I did not like about that in phantasy star 3 is that you have to pay to heal. Nuh uh. I couldnt stand that. So it will be free to save in my game.


EDIT:You know. One of the members above me gave me an idea. Do you think this system of SP will work better if the crystal or whatever is an item? But if the are only in specefic locations it will incrrease the challenge....Hmm. I have no Idea If they should be mobile or not mobile......

This post has been edited by atlus: Jun 8 2013, 07:03 PM

[TheCableGuy]

Whether or not it's Mobile, it must be convenient,
unless it's inconvenience is the only cost in saving....
Meaning, I hate having to FIND the Save Points,
or the Save Point is a ways away from your current location.

One idea would be Drop items (Scrolls of Remembrance?) that you get during the game.
This would allow for Semi-Limited, Anywhere Saves.

I played some kind of game like that once, but for the life of me, I can't remember which one it was.
I've played games that you can BUY save items but that made it feel disconnected in someway.