We could use a new "screenshot" thread Options

[Vexus]

After the screenshot thread was closed we got asked to post in the resources thread but the resources thread states to not post pictures of your game OR pictures that you do not intend to public with the others... so why not make a new thread in theory and design or games under discussion named mapping improvement thread?

This thread should be specifically for people seeking for opinions on their maps and the possibility on making them better instead of showing off your maps to promote your game. Sometimes people start experimenting on new games but don't have a thread in games under construction because they don't meet the required information on having a thread or are still deciding on what to make of the game.

Currently there's nowhere in the forum where to post topics for stuff like these so why not open a new thread or open again the screenshot thread for this specific reason?

Thanks.

[X-M-O]

It's very simple to get the required information to create a game topic in GUC, and for these members (who are still deciding on what to make of the game) making a GUC topic is exactly what they need in order to develop their idea into something more (such as a Long Demo, etc.).
Chances are that if you have enough completed on your project to even have a screenshot, then you have enough to create a topic in GUC.

I've just had another look at the GUC rules and template. It's extremely easy to complete enough information to get a GUC topic approved, and making significant changes to the game is expected (such as direction, and/or even as drastic as the game's genre) after all it is under construction.

At any rate, have the Screenshot Thread is redundant because GUC topics are easy to create even if you have very little idea as to where you want to go with your game, and members who already have a game topic simply don't need a screenshot thread.

[Vexus]

Problem is very very very very (times a million) few people ever reply to game topics even if people state they need feedback on their maps.

Long ago I asked on my thread feedback on a certain map to see if the muddy terrain looked fine on the map but no one replied then I tried asking again after a week and guess what? Yep no replies.

Having a thread for feedback so that you can improve your mapping skills not only lessens the amount of pages/spam on your project thread but like the screenshot thread showed people had to comment on the previous screenshot if they wanted to show theirs.

Very few people really give feedback here which sucks, removing the only thread that made it possible made it worse imo.

This post has been edited by Vexus: Mar 5 2012, 03:51 PM

[X-M-O]

I agree that feedback isn't given as often as most people would like, but we still had that problem with the Screenshot Thread, which is why the rule to "post feedback before posting your own screenshot" was made. However, most of the commenting/feedback was superficial and unhelpful (though there was a bit of decent commenting/feedback, there was nothing substantial that would warrant the topic's existence solely for that purpose).
If, however, there were a topic created that was basically called "Learn 2 Map" then it would make more sense to have such a topic as people could really get in there and hash things out in a way that would benefit the person learning to map. The Screenshot Thread, as it was, did not provide this type of feedback and was relatively a "show-off" topic.

[Adrien.]

I really cant see why we got rid of this every other "rpg maker forum" has a screenshot thread - its like the norm....Does it not "hurt" us more to not one have one?

[X-M-O]

I really don't see "everyone else has one" as being anything remotely close to a good reason to have anything. =\

We've got more complaints about not receiving good feedback with the Screenshot Thread than we have in relation to it being gone, lol.


I also wanted to point out that a solution to the Screenshot Thread has been presented here (click for topic) by Titanhex and it hasn't received any responses - it's the closest thing to a good solution for the Screenshot Thread idea that we've actually had a decent amount of thought on.

[Vexus]

I agree with you xmo, many people didn't provide any good feedback in the screenshot thread but while many didn't some of us did provide some feedback.

[Sakura Phoenix]

It might just be me, but I enjoyed the ease of being able to look through "pages" of examples of people's mapping and seeing how people used their resources to make maps. I guess, once could always look at older screenshot threads, but it just isn't the same...it isn't current projects. For myself, and again it might just be me, I'll see someone's project in the screenshot thread and it'll make me want to check out the main game thread, it was rarely the other way around( I get the feeling that many don't feel like clicking every project on the main GUC thread and finding an interesting game that route; I only have time myself to read a couple and alas it's usually the first three at the top and then trying to do that for the other topics like long demos...)

I may not need help entirely with mapping, but people have in the past commented tweaks on screenshots if I was unsure of say lighting or my spritework for my game.

I disagree with comments being mostly unhelpful, I can only think of maybe once or twice where I saw a comment for a map I posted that wasn't helpful or made no sense.

I mean I do get the direction/idea of trying to get people to comment on mapping in someone's game's thread, but people already hardly comment on a thread once a project is off the ground with substantial work, unless it's a "I'm stuck here, what do I do next". And yes, sometimes the screenshot thread becomes a show-off of someone's work, yet I ask what's the problem with that? Why can't it be both? Why does the occasional "Look at me!" have to ruin it for those who want an opinon on direction of mapping or even maybe Menu alignment or HUD's? And then of course there are those who don't know about mapping and have done what they think is a decent job, and can get more feedback to either add or detract from a map or if a tileset clashes, etc. Not a lot of people are willing to go through each thread and check on mapping and then comment or add suggestions, especially after each subsequence update a person might do to a tileset/menu/HUD/map. But I saw in the screenshot thread, the chances of that happening and people trying to follow through with an update and then a person (Not always the same one mind you) saying "Yea, that's better, but tone down the fog" or "It's still too dark" etc.

But again this might just be me.
EDIT: As for the poor commenting in screenshot unless, it's from one specific person, most of the comments were not that bad.

This post has been edited by Sakura Phoenix: Mar 5 2012, 04:08 PM

[kayden997]

So simply create a new media forum (like the art work one where one person has their individual post) and just allow people with 100 posts?

[Titanhex]

The Screenshot thread in GUC got a few complaints, and was causing more problems than it solved.

It was taking the spotlight in GUC, and few people were checking out or replying to game threads. Some screenshots probably would receive better feedback in their own forum too, since the screenshots occasionally tied into narrative and setting elements for that particular game. Other questions and comments really boiled down to preference.

I sifted through some of the new entries and really saw little that a mapping tutorial couldn't explain far better; Mapping tutorials that are prevalent in our tutorial section. The lack of interest in improving someone's design was all too obvious.

People would post, but many seemed all too eager to circumvent the feedback rule as quickly as possible to post their own work. Some complained and argued about the feedback they received as well. Hell, I think a few arguments even broke out in the thread or as a result of it.

I posted a few screenshots in there once, received a reply or two that I couldn't really use, and just looked at tutorials and got a lot better that way. I don't speak for the majority, but I do account for my own experience with the thread. "Not that bad" certainly doesn't mean "helpful."

I don't want the focus here to be on screenshots, I want it to be on the games themselves. This is a forum dedicated to game making using the RM series, and Creative Commons really ties things together. A screenshot shows so little of a game, and can only help so much.

That's why I've suggested a Hard Theory thread, which allows you to ask for feedback on entire levels including screenshots of your mapping. It's not just a place for "How does my map look" but "How does this level look?" It can create ideas on great gameplay. You can show where a player may need to solve a puzzle or where they'd jump over ledges, along with if the aesthetics are working.

And by reading these threads players will get a strong sense of how to design their games, what truly works and what's just ideals and theory. It separates winning ideas from those that don't hold up.

Certainly we can discuss a thread in tutorials or some similar forum as "Screenshot Showoff" where people can post their best screenshots for other members of the community to learn from, but even that wouldn't be nearly as helpful as a Hard Theory thread.

Also thank you XMO for pointing out my topic and explaining my stance on the issue. You illustrate the issues quiet well :3

[Sakura Phoenix]

Then by all means if people feel that the screenshot thread is stealing their thunder, make a new place for it. But then wouldn't the complaint be that one place is stealing the thunder away from whichever?

And when I said not that bad, I mean not that bad, as in as bad as people were making it sound, my word choice was perhaps not the best.

I read several pages of the most recent screenshot thread at the point of my edit and then went back to an older version than the most recent. Yes, you can pick up hints in the tutorials but honestly how many newer mappers go read all the tutorials? Unfortunately, our society wants quick fixes and quick feedback first, and then as a person learns and grasps they are lacking in an area, they are then more willing to do research. I guess I looked at the thread with a glass more half full than empty. I saw a lot of good suggestions, specific suggestions about rooms and lighting or even tones. Even feedback about menu placements/filling empty spaces. Yes, mapping like art in a sense is subjective, (some might like sparser maps, some might like denser maps) and yes some people will reject suggestions, even applicable and GOOD feedback, but must all suffer because of a few? I've seen many examples of people saying something is right and changing it. Or even starting to grasp better mapping in a few pages(If you look at some people's mapping at the begining pages and then compare them to the later pages) It's like being able to have a personal tutor without one person having to dedicate the time to tutor everyone.

@Titanhex; Your idea Titanhex, I was not even aware as a prospect because I don't visit every thread on RRR and like some I only float around here and there. (Mostly resources request, to help people out or GUC and Demos)

But, it seems like a good start...esp. for those wanting to go in depth, but it seems to be about half of the people posting in screenshots aren't as dedicated or as far into their project. I think that your idea is definitely the next step. For people who have a project perhaps even mostly planned out or even further in GUC in design. Half of the games in screenshot threads, here ...and in other places don't get to the finished stage or even get to the english version. (I've seen a lot of other languages games posted also in screenshot, but because this is an english forum, the majority won't be able to post and have it moved to GUC, because they won't or can't get it translated into English(correct me if I'm wrong about this) As a result we miss out learning or asking about these games or even resources....which might be a different problem/ or non-problem entirely.

Now, with people arguing about getting feedback, you will find that anyplace, Screenshots, GUC, Demos, etc...sometimes a person is unwilling to yield or accept feedback. Perhaps, if a thread was prefaced with a "Post only if you want feedback" you'd weed out those who don't want feedback.

EDIT: As for people complaining about screenshots was it the feedback tone? Or was it a couple of people that it seemed the complaints were about? If I might ask.

This post has been edited by Sakura Phoenix: Mar 5 2012, 06:34 PM

[Titanhex]

Screenshots are such a minor fraction of the problem.

Games don't get made because people don't know how to make that leap between theory and ideas into the finished working product. For some it just happens, for others they give up or struggle or simplify. Many of them never see that process and look at what they're doing and lose confidence that they're on the right track.

It's actually not far off from drawing. You can start with tons of guidelines and misplaced lines, and have to erase and retry, or the image looks ugly because it's not complete. Then you lose confidence to finish a product.

Hard theory gives us that bridge. I even encourage posting a series of screenshots in a hard theory discussion. Infact that is far more productive and helpful than a single screenshot in a 150 page thread.

GUC should be where the majority of Hard Theory is taking place, but currently it is not seen as a place for that. It is seen as a place to post games which are in their initial stages for early hype instead of for feedback. There is a chance Hard Theory could be a way to make GUC a more productive forum over time, as it's likely Hard Theory will be a GUC sub-forum.

If that becomes the case, than there would be no need for a Screenshot Feedback thread.

This is idealistic though. That is why I want more feedback in the Hard Theory discussion thread. I want to know what people think, how they interpret this idea, and what they'd do if this forum was put in place. That will give me the reality of this idea.

I don't believe different languages are a problem, and certainly "Hard Theory" wouldn't have a language requirement so long as you can discuss things in English just like any part of the board. There's a reason we separate English games and bar non-English games, but the ultimate decision isn't up to me.

The complaints weren't about the screenshot thread itself, but posts within. Things such as not commenting on previous screenshots, issues arising between members that resulted in flaming, and an observation on my part. If you want a full rundown it may be better to ask HarryB or Sailerus as they've been around longer than I have.

It was silly to see people report and all we'd do is slap them on the wrist. It seemed pointless to enforce anything there and to ask us moderators to do so was equally silly for that reason.

The screenshot thread helped people, but they were few. The help was minimal, and probably not attributed to a single comment. It was likely due to the person going out and studying a little more about mapping. Further, mapping goes far beyond aesthetics to be good. Mapping is a section of Level Design, which is a much more pivotal part of making a game that many RM communities overlook.

It was more hassle to try to maintain the thread and the posters in it than it was to keep it around. It detracted from GUC threads. As well, screenshots are not pivotal points of feedback either, and could be a dangerous pratfall to get stuck on.

I suggest posting in my topic that XMO pointed out to help me understand my Hard Theory board discussion and if it could be successful.

[Vexus]

I took a peek on your thread titanhex and it could be a good idea.

There's 1 thing tough that I'm almost sure it will happen, and reading your long message, (Which I'm 100% sure many skipped because it's too long) the idea of hard theory is nice and all but few people read long posts many tend to skip them, how are you sure it's the right step?

Making a hard theory thread when x person only wants to show a screenshot of a new game he/she may start in the future and is seeking feedback on the art style etc is a bit too much to ask imo. It's easy to make a thread in GUC but like I said previously few even bother reply. Why should x person do a game thread when they are not even sure they are going to do it but are seeking feedback to see if it's a good idea?

I don't know if it's possible to know who was complaining on not getting good feedback but I DID check all the screenshot thread pages long ago and apart of adrien fight I didn't see anything else that resembled flaming and insults. Maybe they were deleted I don't know but if someone shows a picture and thinks it's perfect the way it is even tough many tell him otherwise he shouldn't have posted the screenshot in the first place.

Or instead of making a new thread for screenshots let us post threads for new game ideas and mapping hints in theory and design (It's theory and design after all) or a new sub forum where people with 100 posts+ can post in it so 1 posters don't put their screenshots without caring of the rules.

Just my 2 cent.

This post has been edited by Vexus: Mar 6 2012, 02:30 AM

[kaz]

Sometimes a long post is required in order to get the point over-

Vexus your post was nearly as long as Titanhex- so please do not make remarks about the length of a post. If someone is intererested in the topic they read the replies no matter what the length.

Titan may have only been here a while but from somone who has been here for years I can tell you that the screenshot thread has always caused problems. Many comments are removed from view - and there have been many versions of said threads of the years.

We are here to encourage and help - which is we are saying that with the minimum of effort a GUC topic can be created and used a a showcase for your ideas - including mapping - which in context with the game design makes more sense to enable feedback.

The hard theory and design is in the infant stages - we would like feedback from the members on this idea,

[Adrien.]

The hard theory and design is in infant stages - we would like feedback from the members on this idea,

this has what to do with screen shots?

[Kaust]

The hard theory and design is in infant stages - we would like feedback from the members on this idea,

this has what to do with screen shots?

...everything.
This whole thread has been talking about a sortof screenshot thread compromise in that very area

[Sakura Phoenix]

Sometimes a long post is required in order to get the point over-

Vexus your post was nearly as long as Titanhex- so please do not make remarks about the length of a post. If someone is intererested in the topic they read the replies no matter what the length.

I do think he wasn't saying it out of annoyance at the length, but rather an example of what has been happening. ^^ Someone posting a topic and despite, for example Titanhex's topic has around 50 views, he has no replies. His point, I think (and I might be wrong, sorry if I am^^ is that if it's hard to get feedback in a game's main topic which might have less in planning stages, how much harder would it be to get feedback at all in yet another thread where things are broken down even more. Unfortunetaly our society wants things feed to them in seconds, and even if something is a great read, many just gloss over it quickly or see the length and back out.



In any case, my point in putting forth that we should keep the screenshot thread is looking at the majority of the newer ones coming into Rpg Making and their thought process/ learning process. Sometimes they need something easy and simple for them to get started and THEN once they get deeper into it and understand more, then they do the extra footwork. Screenshots seemed to be a nice place for them, or at least for those who really just dabble into it and don't want to dedicate a topic's thread to a game quite just yet, but still want feedback on something.


I thought we did have a theory and design thread already...I understand there are restrictions about being specific to your game, but I don't understand why making another thread and adding "Hard" to the title would be a better solution? Wouldn't a simplier solution be to remove the restrictions and allow people to still post game ideas that relate to their game? Also, will it solve the issue of drama? If this new thread does pick up and people feel it overshadows the thread that games are posted in, will it also be shut down? I have a sinking feeling that...some people will still, if they want to, find a way to seem to "bump" their game to the forefront. Whether it's breaking down every aspect of their game a week at a time and posting a "new idea" or "idea they've just implemented" and then discarding it and doing something "newer". If the reason is people don't like to be critique, couldn't that be solved by saying, "Only post screenshots if you want critique?" The new idea of making someone comment was a good idea, and yes sometimes people forgot, but a lot of new ideas take time to be established...even older members didn't know the rules where changed, but amended as soon as it was pointed out.


But anyway, I know that it is felt that it was too much drama so there will more than likely not be a screenshot thread period(Also I know there is more than just mapping or aesthetical design to a game, but I always thought that GUC covered mostly story or character dev and Long Demo's where yere you could get feedback on gameplay and maybe theory and design on little aspects of well...designs or small systems, but screenshots covered what those three didn't, the graphical aspects) And I respect whatever choice will be made in the long run, I know you have your reasons.

[Vexus]

I wasn't implying anything, I was simply saying the truth in which most people tend to skip the text to read the tl;dr version. (And just to be exact, my post length is less than half of titanhex but that has nothing to do with the point I was making.)

How many people of the 150 views this thread had do you really think bothered reading all the posts? That is what I was trying to say.

I did read every post here because I wanted to know what people thought about this subject and while honestly I too sometimes tend to skip walls of text because the subject doesn't interest me much there are times when the subject is interesting and I read it all.

Currently the theory and design section is too restricted and if the rules where lessened there we could post some stuff there hoping on some feedback from others.

This post has been edited by Vexus: Mar 6 2012, 08:20 AM

[Adrien.]

Currently the theory and design section is too restricted and if the rules where lessened there we could post some stuff there hoping on some feedback from others.

couldnt have said it better my self. I see why they removed it - to get you to post in your own thread and update it with new screenshots but honestly - Long demos and other sub forms where people post their games are not as active as they once were when we had a screen shot thread - it made people want to go and look at said persons game to see more info....

[kaz]

The hard theory and design is infant stages - we would like feedback from the members on this idea,

this has what to do with screen shots?

Which shows how much you are actually reading what this topic is about - I do not appreciate the tone in that post Adrien -

The whole point of the topic that we keep referring back to is regarding screenshots, and how they can be shown in a more beneficial way.

How screenshots can be made part of hard theory and how to attract more interest- and of course if there is no screenshot thread - members know that they have to go to topics to see them-

This is why we have the new topic to discuss this motion- people are saying about the rules mean you can't do this and that - but we have not even made the rules for the new area yet. it discusses the new home for screenshots- yet no one has even replied.

http://www.rpgrevolution.com/forums/index....showtopic=55612

We are just trying new ideas based on feedback and comments received in messages-